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Old 30-01-2016, 06:21   #61
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
Yes Nick, that was 5hrs after the initial problem though. I guess the managed to tow it 6-7 miles in the mean time.
3 miles North of Kahouanne
Yep. This explains what we can see.

What a shame she could not be salvaged ;-(

Perhaps if the towing boat had a gas driven portable moto-pump. Just perhaps. I have seen such pumps located on a boat that was lifted to the surface then nearly emptied with just two - they must be like 4-fold or better of even a magnum sized electric bilge pump.

What a shame.

b.
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Old 30-01-2016, 06:24   #62
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

I tried to Google marine crash pumps and came up only with forum posts but no actual products.


What product should we be looking at?

I certainly don't want a pump attached to the engine as that's likely not to be working.

12v?

Or portable engine fire type pump?
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Old 30-01-2016, 06:43   #63
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I tried to Google marine crash pumps and came up only with forum posts but no actual products.


What product should we be looking at?

I certainly don't want a pump attached to the engine as that's likely not to be working.

12v?

Or portable engine fire type pump?
These are the 3 I plan on investing in / looking into for my next sail boat.

Fast Flow Pumps - Bilge Pump Design

Honda WX15 Model Info | 1.5" Lightweight Water Pump | Honda Pumps

Jabsco 51270-2011 - 2" bronze pump, 270-size, foot mounted with BSP threaded ports / Bronze Engine Driven Clutch Pumps / Bilge Pumps / Pumps / Marine / Xylem JabscoShop - Jabsco & Rule Pumps and more - from the experts
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Old 30-01-2016, 06:53   #64
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

The blue one bolts around your drive shaft and is running anytime the boat is in gear. The case does not actually touch the impeller so there are no parts that wear out and when not pulling water it acts as a high volume bilge blower. It is capable of a staggering 37,000 gal/hr at 1500 rpms

The Black and bronze one runs off a drive belt on the engine and is engaged by a manual clutch, but you can also get one that is turned on by any 12v source. it can move 3500 gal/hr at 1500 rpm.

The honda is self explanatory and that particular size moves 4400 gal/hr. You can get bigger models if you can fit them. I intially like this one because it is portable and can be stored anywhere until needed. Just make sure you use Stabil in the gas so it doesnt gum up. Maintenance is crucial on this one. Bad gas could equal no dewatering.
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Old 30-01-2016, 07:01   #65
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

lastly the Honda comes with a non-collapsible intake hose and a collapsible discharge hose.

the other two you have to figure out how to route and what materials you have to use to pipe the water out
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Old 30-01-2016, 07:42   #66
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

Thanks for that! The Honda looks like the go as it could be used for fires too, I think, couldn't it?

Very small at 20 pounds, 8 kg weight. Shove it in the aft lazarette fine.

'Only' $550 is not too bad.
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Old 30-01-2016, 13:30   #67
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

Our boat came with one of those jabso belt driven pumps. It serves primary duty as a washdown pump, and with the turning of two valves will suck the water out of the bilge and pump it overboard.
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Old 30-01-2016, 15:17   #68
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
The MCA, all the repair facilities they interviewed and the designer disagree with you:

"Owing to the continuous nature of the matrix where solid floors are in place, particularly in the area of keel attachment, it is not possible to see the bonded areas. It is therefore difficult to readily identify areas where a detachment has occurred, meaning that it is possible for a detachment to remain undetected."

"All of the repairers agreed that it was very difficult to identify areas and the extent of matrix detachment, . . . . . meaning that it is possible for a detachment to remain undetected."

"..... it is unlikely to be sufficient to identify areas where full detachment has not occurred and some bonding exists."

And from prior rudder loss investigations . . . there can be quite difficult to identify latent damage there also.

BTW . . . if I have done my math correctly the 20%/year number means that 1% of charter's touch the bottom - do you really find that so hard to believe? (800 boats x 20% ground/year)/(800 boats * 18 charters/year/boat) = 1%). It might be as much as 2% depending on boat utilization.
20% of 800 is 160 20% OF THE BOATS was I believe your figure not mine....now you are attempting to reduce that to 1% OR in extremis 2% is that you admitting that you were wrong with the 20% figure???

NOT that this matters at all and adds nothing to this thread this simply is a diversion from the main topic, so lets move on please.

RE South Coast Boat repairers, HO HUM that is called covering your arse........BIG TIME.

Repairing IGS detachements is something I am or was an EXPERT AT......I even purchased the Ex Yeoman XXIV a one off Beneteau First 456 that Beneteau built specially (it looked like a standard F456 BUT was anything but, that was only how it looked) for Robin Aysher to win the Admirals Cup with and did a keel up renovation ripping out all the previous six IGS repairs by these experts that no doubt gave feedback to the CR MAIB

These were sticking plaster repairs JUST just sticking plasters.....and that is me being nice!!!!

I worked with High Modulus one of the worlds top composite engineering companies...... together we drew up the repair spec for this IGS repair to this First 456.......

THEN I gave the boat to a very famous Southhapmton boat yard to do the repair.

THIS was after taking my repair specification to a number of equally famous boatyard and repairers, every last one said we would not do it that way.....seems they never learn from past mistakes.

And YES some of them HAD done past repairs to this boat.....at that point the boat was anonymous so they had no idea what boat they were going to be repairing.

Sadly chosing the boatyard that said they would do it my way was a mistake.

They in their wisdom also thought they knew 'best' and decided to tear up my repair schedule without reference to me.

BUT the person who was doing the work a true old fashioned craftsman with real standards and a deep sense of honesty and knowing of our sailing plans for this boat could not handle the attempted deception and downgrading of the repair specification and he did a whistle blowing job for me....and shopped them...

We employed a famous surveyor.....(I am also a rtd part time Yacht Surveyor and Marine Project Manager) we took core samples all over the repair and had them burn tested by SP Systems to prove that the repair had not followed the agreed repair specification.

Then we had a meeting with the MD of the company (his son was the operations manager) suggesting two options

Option One all our money back plus serious damages for the deception and time lost AND an apology

OR

Option Two we meet in court.....

Wisely the father was as upset about the whole mess as we were and they took the first option.

BUT they still fcuked up they dropped the nine foot draft special section aerofoil lead keel and broke off the front part, sticking it back on with some epoxy...this we only discovered when we had the boat on the hard in the IoW.

We towed the boat over to Shephards Yard in Cowes on the Isle of Wight and I gathered together and employed my own team to do this repair.....

I have read your writing and and travels even met Beth I think.... and I was about to build a VDS Samoa too not an alloy one proabaly a composite one for obvious reasons, here sadly you are way out of your depth and swimming in my pond.

Truly I am not interested in some sort of battle with you, I would love to understand what happened here with this Oceanis 48 sinking, sadly this is unlikley to happen as I cant set up a MAI. and force witnesses to attend and give evidence.

THE ONLY WAY we can come to any logical assumption here.

Is for all seven people OR if some of them were young children for the Adults to fill in a detailed questionaire.....{but then what is it that they say about out of the mouths of children}........starting with when they got on the boat and finishing with when they got off it and it sank, leaving nothing out.......

THEN IF we had their replies PERHAPS we could then examine the reports in a sensible logical and foensic manner ASKING LOTS MORE QUESTIONS I am sure, and then perhaps come to some sort of worthwhile assumption/conclusion.

Just now its a guessing game with lots of background noise and little clarity as to what happened.
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Old 30-01-2016, 15:28   #69
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
The OP says they were a bit afraid of getting their hand stuck in the wheel so took a moment to figure to move and reach around the wheel to hit the autopilot.

Let's assume #1 that the autopilot failure is the cause rather than the symptom of the water ingress. And #2 that per the op they correctly inserted the emergency tiller and it did not give them steering. That would most likely imply two things (a) that the autopilot had torqued the quadrant and that had sheared off the head of the rudder shaft - which is why the emergency tiller did not give them steering. (b) the shaft was still in the boat, but they had water ingress, so that torquing (and subsequent rudder shaft movement unconstrained by an upper bearing) damaged the rudder bearing seals, which started slowish but steady leaking. This has historically proven a hard leak to stem.

The OP does not say whether they looked inside the compartment at the quadrant/rudder shaft. If they had, this all should have been apparent, and the shaft would have been moving rather vigorously in the lower bearing, as it would have been detached from its upper bearing.

The key question with that scenario is that I would have thought the quadrant would have come loose from the shaft without tearing the head off. That would be the prefered failure mode. It would be interesting to know exactly how the quadrant is attached to this rudder.

I might note that steering with emergency tillers is often quite a bit more difficult than people expect. And that could have been the reason for them saying they were 'unable' to steer with the tiller, rather than damage to the shaft. It would be interested to know if the 'failure to steer' was because it was hard, or because there was no resistance at all. That would tell us quite a bit about the shaft damage.

I covered this very scenario in one of my first posts here.

You are assuming here that the quadrant is below the top bearing, that may not be the case.

Like I suggested there may be a seperate autopilot tiller PINNED onto the rudder post, that drilling for the pin and the torque of a full and constant application of a hydralic ram with the quadrant hard against the full travel rudder stop may have been enough force to split the rudder post so that the emergency tiller would not be able to turn the rudder. BUT just MORE guesswork
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Old 30-01-2016, 15:42   #70
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by Highland Fling View Post
20% of 800 is 160 20% OF THE BOATS was I believe your figure not mine....now you are attempting to reduce that to 1% OR in extremis 2% is that you admitting that you were wrong with the 20% figure???

No. I said that 20% of the boats grounded per year. Of course each boat does multiple charters per year. So I then estimated that was 1 or 2% of the charters which grounded. That is entirely consistent. And it does not seem at all surprising.

........ They in their wisdom also thought they knew 'best' and decided to tear up my repair schedule without reference to me. ......
We employed a famous surveyor.....Then we had a meeting with the MD of the company ...... all our money back plus serious damages for the deception and time lost AND an apology OR Option Two we meet in court.....BUT they still fcuked up......

Quite honestly, that long story would rather seem to support the point I was making . . .which is that it is certainly not inconceivable that this boat had either undiscovered latent damage and/or less than perfect repairs to such damage..

Just now its a guessing game with lots of background noise and little clarity as to what happened.

Yea, its an internet forum. As I said earlier, if you don't like it, just stay stay away from the discussion.
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You are assuming here that the quadrant is below the top bearing, that may not be the case.
Usually the upper bearing is as high as possible, to get as great a span as possible. Looking at this boat design I would STRONGLY guess that would be the case here. That the upper bearing was mounted on the underside of the deck and the quadrant and any tiller arms below it. But this should be relatively easy to confirm. You have a 461 - where is your upper bearing located?

Also if the tiller was above the upper bearing, and split the shaft above the upper bearing . . . it does not really explain where the water to flood the boat came from. Because the shaft would still have been stable between the two bearings and not wrecked the lower seals.
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Old 30-01-2016, 15:49   #71
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Yes, great point.

We need less stupid phrases like 'scared man and a bucket' and more thought to reality.

Also I think you and Evans must be close to the mark, that rudder shaft tube must be involved. If the shaft tube fractured at its base (previous grounding?) and the rudder and quadrant was flapping about the AP may have being trying to correct course at each flap. Thus the AP was a symptom of the damage causing the water ingress.

My rudder shaft tube is 2 or 3 inches in diameter. Even with the rudder still inside there's a hell of a lot of water going to leak in... and even if you have underwater epoxy putty it won't work cos the rudder is still flapping about.


Mark

WELL thanks Mark

So If your boat is sinking you will just sit back and watch it will you rather than try and keep her afloat with a bucket OR like I suggested use the engine seawater pump as an EMERGENCY bilge pump when you have no other options.....

This boat took FIVE HOURS to sink obviously once the CG are on the scene the people will have to come off the boat......but lets say that they motored when they were being towed and used buckets and the engine to get SOME of the water out of the boat......maybe just maybe it would have been high in the water when the pumps arrived.....as to the helicopter not having a pump.....that to me seems a serious ommision...no need to drop it in the water with the swimer but suely if it had been avaiable it could have been lowered onto the boat in a controlled manner.
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Old 30-01-2016, 16:10   #72
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Usually the upper bearing is as high as possible, to get as great a span as possible. Looking at this boat design I would STRONGLY guess that would be the case here. That the upper bearing was mounted on the underside of the deck and the quadrant and any tiller arms below it. But this should be relatively easy to confirm. You have a 461 - where is your upper bearing located?

Also if the tiller was above the upper bearing, and split the shaft above the upper bearing . . . it does not really explain where the water to flood the boat came from. Because the shaft would still have been stable between the two bearings and not wrecked the lower seals.
YES USUALLY BUT NOT ON ALL BENNIES./OCEANIS's a number have the quadrant above the upper bearing. this makes running the steering cables a simpler design.

Having just fixed an autipilot on a Bennie for another cruisier I still am of the opinion (WILD GUESS) that the hydraulic autopilot ram destroyed the rudder shaft by shearing it and disconnecting the top from the bottom.

The 461 has a long rudder tube that terminates well above the fixed waterline with a simple thrust bearing no real seal and the quadrant sits on top of that thust bearing. We retrofitted a self aligning roller bearing to the top two years ago it sits at the very end of the rudder stock and is half and half above and below the raised part of the cockpit floor where the entry to the swim platform is...so almost the best possible design really.

The Bennies I have seen with a top rudder seal - well it is a simple PVC/Rubber gaiter for sure not a design that appeals to me.

We are never going to know where this water came from the picture shows the rudder dropped and the bottom bearing visible.....being that the rudder is bouyant that MIGHT BE an intication that it was not connected to anything inside the boat. IF this is a rudder post that is not above the static waterline at the top and has a simple gaiter rudder post seal...........well!!!!!!
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Old 30-01-2016, 16:28   #73
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Thanks for that! The Honda looks like the go as it could be used for fires too, I think, couldn't it?

Very small at 20 pounds, 8 kg weight. Shove it in the aft lazarette fine.

'Only' $550 is not too bad.
NOPE it could not put our fires well not on a boat with a Fuel Fire like we had in Sint Maarten the other day. You need FOAM!!!! Petrol and Diesel will just burn on top of the water!!!!
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Old 30-01-2016, 16:46   #74
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

I will look for a photo or drawing of the 485 rudder shaft/bearing/quadrant arrangement. If anyone has access to one and could take a photo and share it with us, it would be terrific.


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NOPE it could not put our fires well not on a boat with a Fuel Fire like we had in Sint Maarten the other day. You need FOAM!!!! Petrol and Diesel will just burn on top of the water!!!!

mmmmm. . . . I am sure you know that the commercial yacht standard (like Rina and Lloyds) require pressure water based firefighting systems (in fact two separate water fire pumps), in addition to chemical systems, and that many classed yachts carry pumps exactly like that honda (as the '2nd pump') for combined dewatering and firefighting purposes.

It is a bit off topic , , , but if anyone is interested I have always found this ABS guidance on firefighting to be an excellent discussion https://www.eagle.org/eagleExternalP...1_FireFighting
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Old 30-01-2016, 17:53   #75
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
I think people are forgetting some important details from the original post:


We know the rudder was still on the boat and roughly centered, but moving around freely. If the emergency rudder didn't work, it would seem that the rudder shaft was broken somehow, which might have been from a previous grounding. This might have affected the seals as well, resulting in a very slow sinking.
That seems to make sense but the sinking was not that slow and if I am not mistaken you can access the rudder post on the Oceanis 485 and that would be one of the first things to check since the boat had no rudder even with the emergency rudder on.

They say that the water was coming from an inaccessible location and a rudder post is normally accessible so I guess they ruled that out? or not? Maybe the OP can enlighten that?
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