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Old 29-01-2016, 09:01   #31
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by Highland Fling View Post
really unhelpful conjecture
Hey, it sank. That's a fact, right! I simply listed the most possible ways water could get in the boat and it could have sunk.

Oceanis have brass thru hulls and mixed metal valves. That's also a fact.

It is also a fact that charter boats in the caribbean are run aground with astonishing frequency. You can look at any of the charter repair facilities to confirm that.

My personal guess is that the reported autopilot problem was a symptom (eg it was shorting out because water was already in the boat), but it could have been a cause by damaging the rudder bearing seals.
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Old 29-01-2016, 09:29   #32
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Hey, it sank. That's a fact, right! I simply listed the most possible ways water could get in the boat and it could have sunk.

Oceanis have brass thru hulls and mixed metal valves. That's also a fact.

It is also a fact that charter boats in the caribbean are run aground with astonishing frequency. You can look at any of the charter repair facilities to confirm that.

My personal guess is that the reported autopilot problem was a symptom (eg it was shorting out because water was already in the boat), but it could have been a cause by damaging the rudder bearing seals.
The only fact we have is that it sunk

Not all Oceanis boats have brass thru hulls and mixed metal valves......that is a fact.

Fact check can you give me the percentage of charter boats that are run aground with astonishing frequency, or is this just more conjecture?

I have not managed to look at the video yet but if as is reported the rudder was wagging about that could indicate it was detached from the steering......were the wheels spinning in time to the rudder movement?

I appreciate that we are unlikely to 'know' with any certainty what happened here but let's not do a Donald R here with known and unknown reasons for this boat sinking.

Surely the bigger issues are why did the pumps not work? That is a fact that we are never going to find the answer to. BUT why did the CG turn out to a sinking boat without an emergency pump? That is also a fact and one that does need answering IMHO
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Old 29-01-2016, 09:40   #33
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

I am surprise we don't here more stories like this, charter boats in the Caribbean are used hard and abused even harder....this boat could have dragged anchor months earlier and nudged the rudder just enough to weaken to the point of eventual failure. Charterer's will not report these incidents and so the charter companies will not check the boat's appendages as one would hope.....stuff happens, it's a big unforgiving sea, thank goodness no one was hurt
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Old 29-01-2016, 10:12   #34
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by Highland Fling View Post
Not all Oceanis boats have brass thru hulls and mixed metal valves......that is a fact.

They did as they left the factory. Obviously it is possible they had been changed since. But I just pointed it out as an obvious risk factor to that point of failure. Making that point somewhat more likely than it would be otherwise.
Fact check can you give me the percentage of charter boats that are run aground with astonishing frequency, or is this just more conjecture?

20% per year, in the moorings BVI fleet

The dig at poor maintenace

mmm . . . . non-working bilge pumps clearly suggests a problem there.
the OP asked "We are attempting to get some guidance to help us understand how this failure could have happened". I am simply outlining the possibilities and their likelihood. I am sorry you don't like it, but you can just put my posts on ignore if they make you angry.

........
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Old 29-01-2016, 10:14   #35
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by Hud3 View Post
The OP says the event occurred in 500 meters of water.

If the charter company thinks snagging a lobster float line was involved, they're barking up the wrong tree. I never came across any pots in that depth. Up to 150 meters, maybe. 500, never.
Hud,

As far as I remember the chart, there are two or three shallower spots on the way from G to A - both about 60 meters deep or so. So Maybe G fishermen put their tools there.

But to get into trouble the boat would have to be motoring, not sailing. Also, given the location of the rudders and the scoop in place, one can simply put their head below water and LOOK at whatever happened there to the rudders. No need to guess. If scared of water, just place your camera there and take a shot.

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Old 29-01-2016, 10:21   #36
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

The competence of the crew must be called into question, as they had no working bilge pump. But it is irony that a boat with 2 wheels (horrible design) lost steering.
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Old 29-01-2016, 10:23   #37
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

Say the pot got hauled up, by its line. How come the engine did not stop then? There is well over 60 meters of this line if the spot is like 60 meters deep.

And it does sound like another 'round the rudder' critical damage on a newish Benne. And it is not just a Benne challenge as I think I know at least one other manufacturer that has similar issues.

Odd the crew did not care to check the pumps prior to departure. I always do. But I am not a charter sailor.

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Old 29-01-2016, 10:34   #38
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
The competence of the crew must be called into question, as they had no working bilge pump. But it is irony that a boat with 2 wheels (horrible design) lost steering.
Normally i'd say yes but given it was a charter and not there boat I'd be inclined to give them a pass
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Old 29-01-2016, 10:44   #39
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

I'm with Evans as to likely causes. Rudder seemed to go stop to stop more than once. The AP control location required the driver to reach through the wheel spokes to turn it off. Really poor design there.

Would like to hear how long it took to sink. A through hull would take more than a few minutes. A broken rudder post or stuffing box might take less time.
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Old 29-01-2016, 11:09   #40
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
Normally i'd say yes but given it was a charter and not there boat I'd be inclined to give them a pass
What competent crew would NOT check a (especially charter) boat's bilge pumps before a passage? You might assume your own boat's pumps have not failed since you last checked them. But an unfamiliar charter boat? Serious incompetence, there.

And how long can a spinning wheel prevent the helmsman from shutting off the autopilot before hitting the stop? A few seconds?
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Old 29-01-2016, 11:26   #41
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

[QUOTE=MarkJ;2030129]
Quote:
Originally Posted by partyanimal View Post
...

Finally, if an emergency hoes on for a few hours as this sounds like it has, there's a lot of regular comma still needed - ships arriving in port, pilots, tugs etc. Its difficult to close down the whole area and have ship waiting for 4 hours to berth in another country. (Though most port authorities use 12 and 13 for commercial ships)
Which is why the Coast Guard should move the emergency comms to a working channel as soon as possible.
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Old 29-01-2016, 12:09   #42
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

I think people are forgetting some important details from the original post:
Quote:
Before he could do this there was a large noise and the wheels stopped. Having regained control it was apparent that they had lost steering. The next stage was to engage the emergency tiller, this was done but the yacht did not respond to the the tiller. As they were sailing with another group they were taken in tow. Shortly afterwards the saloon was filling with water
We know the rudder was still on the boat and roughly centered, but moving around freely. If the emergency rudder didn't work, it would seem that the rudder shaft was broken somehow, which might have been from a previous grounding. This might have affected the seals as well, resulting in a very slow sinking.
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Old 29-01-2016, 13:34   #43
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
the OP asked "We are attempting to get some guidance to help us understand how this failure could have happened". I am simply outlining the possibilities and their likelihood. I am sorry you don't like it, but you can just put my posts on ignore if they make you angry.

........

Please! make me angry, that is just too silly for words, can we not be both logical and sensible here.


We will never know why this boat sank all the conjecture opinions and waffle are not going to reach any definitive conclusion as we have no actual evidence to evaluate and come to a logical sensible determination of what happened here.

Moorings Sunsail have 800 boats in the BVI's are you seriously suggesting that every year 20% of them. 160 boats need major repairs due to groundings?

That I don't believe and if Clarence Is still the base manager I will get some factual info from hin next time we meet, that won't be this year though.

The OP won't get an answer here lots of options though none of them based on any evidence or factual info. Tis an unwelcome mystery doubly so as they did not manage to identify where the water ingress was and no one seems to have done an in the water examination. No one died or got hurt thank goodness and it was only a charter boat so no one on the scene had any real attachment to the boat.

The CG turning up to a sinking boat without an emergency pump is almost as upsetting as the boat sinking.

If the boat took an hour or two to sink I am surprised that it could not be saved, but then it was only a charter boat and once the people on board were safe that probably was mission accomplished.
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Old 29-01-2016, 13:48   #44
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

FWIW . . . autopilot control head . . . not ideal obviously, but also not so uncommon an installation

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Old 29-01-2016, 13:55   #45
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by Highland Fling View Post
We will never know why this boat sank . . . .

Of course.

But that certainly and obviously does not preclude us from speculating.

And there are often things to be learned from speculating.

If you don't like speculation you should really stay away from the accident threads.

I might note that I was on the official panel investigating the Aegeon incident. Since everyone died, we could not ever officially 'prove' what happened. This is not so uncommon in accident investigations. But we could (and often can) make informed speculation based on what the crew had done on prior races and what had happened in other similar incidents. I believe some of that was useful for the community, at least as a reminder of a few things not to do.


Moorings Sunsail have 800 boats in the BVI's are you seriously suggesting that every year 20% of them. 160 boats need major repairs due to groundings?

Yes, roughly 20% of them ground a year. You can believe it or not - it is a fact. I did not say 20% needed 'major repairs'. Many of the groundings are 'just' touched up on the next haulout . . . but it is in fact quite hard to determine if there may be some latent damage to the rudder or floor structure . . . as we know from the Cheeke Rafiki investigation.
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