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Old 12-02-2016, 04:53   #316
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Old 12-02-2016, 04:56   #317
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Voyage boats? under which category?
Europeans call voyage boats to boats that are designed to voyage, monohulls or cats. If you really don't know what boats the expression refers just google for "voilier de grand voyage". Go to images and you will see quickly what they are talking about.
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Old 12-02-2016, 05:24   #318
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
...
Hard groundings, as in coral heads or reefs: three times total in 33 years. Once in Kaneohe bay at HW on a king tide... the reef markers were submerged and we were strangers to the area (and to coral... our first tropical cruise). ...

The other two were in Fiji, in very bad visibility conditions (leaden overcast, no wind and all the reef markers missing due to a cyclone). We knew we were at risk, were going very slowly and were able to self-rescue. ...

... The folks who brag about never going aground, and those who decry the seamanship of anyone who does are likely not often in strange waters, or ones with indifferent charting or shifting banks. Real life cruising often involves all of those features, and to completely avoid the chance of a grounding keeps one from leaving the yelllow brick road.

But hell, Evans, you know all that!

Jim
Curiously you confirm what I have said about the infrequency of hard groundings and about many sailors not having one is his lifetime.

You had three in 33 years of cruising and if I am not mistaken (I seem to have read on on other thread) 200 000nm.

That means one for each 11 years and about 60 000nm. The vast majority of sailors never makes that number of miles.

Then you say that all the hard groundings were done on conditions you know you were at risk, with submerged markets and that you were going very slow, one on Haway other on the Fuji Islands.

Hard to understand how you can get an hard grounding going very slow but in any case I doubt that I would have entered a place that needs markers and that I know that they are submersed and regarding to sailing in Fiji and in a less extent to Hawaii, those are already sailing grounds out of where the vast majority of sailors sail, the ones for whom mass production main market cruising boats are designed for.

In reality the type of extensive sailing and cruising you do, sailing in baldly charted waters, would make the more indicated boat for you a voyage boat.

It seems that you are just doing what most do in this forum that is assuming that the characteristics a sailboat should have for you and your type of cruising and use of the boat, should be the ones that all sailboats should have regarding all type of cruisers.

In fact your use of the boat is a very unusual one among the vast majority of cruisers. Probably a lot less than 1% had sailed for 33 years on a sailboat and done 200 000nm, or sailed on remote and badly charted places and more important, they have no desire to do that and they will never do that.

It is a bit like the need to have a 4 wheel drive truck with a big engine (able to last 500 000km) if one only wishes to travel or voyage on well paved roads and not for a lifetime, but only for some months in a year.
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Old 12-02-2016, 05:25   #319
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Europeans call voyage boats to boats that are designed to voyage, monohulls or cats. If you really don't know what boats the expression refers just google for "voilier de grand voyage". Go to images and you will see quickly what they are talking about.
Hehe, could be the French cruisers, voyage boats.. I doubt very much in Spain or Uk or Italy call Voyage boats to those boats that sail a mere ARC... or to the Polynesia for example.... Voyage boats?? wtf is that....
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Old 12-02-2016, 05:41   #320
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

By the way , I get it, Voyage boats= Blue water boats= Offshore boats. etc etc...
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Old 12-02-2016, 05:41   #321
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

Seriously P? you seem to be doing everything you can to alienate yourself from everyone on here and now you are going after Jim Cate for having TOO much experience. Words cannot even describe how asinine that seems.
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Old 12-02-2016, 05:56   #322
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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.... I doubt very much in Spain or Uk or Italy call Voyage boats to those boats that sail a mere ARC... or to the Polynesia for example.... Voyage boats?? wtf is that....
Yes, you are absolutely right, a Voyage boat is to do extensive voyaging while living permanently on the boat. For doing the ARC an Oceanis or other mass production main market boat is adequate and many do that each year.

For sailing to Polynesia that is another story, a Voyage boat would be far better and more adequate even if many do that with a main mass production sailboat, including Oceanis, simply because they cannot afford a more adequate boat.

Older boats have other types of problems and most that sunk are not new mass production main market boats but older boats, even if the owner thinks they are in good condition and well maintained, like that Moody that was making the ARC as the beginning of a circumnavigation or that Italian yacht that sunk recently near Martinique, while on an Atlantic crossing.
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:19   #323
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

I'm not really following how the bene in question wasn't designed/built to withstand calm 1m seas and <20kt winds 10 miles north of Guadeloupe. Too much smoke and mirrors perhaps?
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:20   #324
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

Ok , so.


A: OCEAN,
Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.


B: OFFSHORE,
Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.


Under your logic I will rate a Oceanis CAT B.


Why? Like you say if they are not designed for extended periods at sea with the logic weather involved then they are not suited for that kind of use.


Let me tell ya that the right season and the wrong season is a fallacy unless one choose to sail in a dangerous hurricane zone in the hurricane season, then you have those folks caught in a F8 Tramontana aka mistral around the Balearics islands in summer, or maybe you believe that the atlantic is free of weird weather in summer to? what about AUS ? is rough up there you know?


If you have a boat built under a category or especifications rated for ocean service the boat need to deal with Ocean weather , or do you believe the med or the Caribbean is free of rocks, reefs, waves, wind, squalls etc....
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:22   #325
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

@ Polux...

Hang on, I think I might be having an epiphany...

Is it MOST WORDS WINS here?

Somebody could have said.
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:33   #326
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

meanwhile, if a Oceanis is rated CAT A, we expect the structure, rudder, keel ,able to withstand the kind of weather associated with the CAT parameters, obviously that rudder box don't meet those parameters, then something is really wrong with those lame dumb EU regulations... AVS is the primary golden aple for those Vamps when they write those Rules, leaving aside other more important considerations like construction practiques and QC, but for QC , construction practiques, we have then another pile of dog ****, the ISO Standar, good for a laugh....
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:41   #327
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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@ Polux...

Hang on, I think I might be having an epiphany...

Is it MOST WORDS WINS here?

Somebody could have said.
I thought it was best smoke blowing ability.
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:49   #328
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Ok , so.


A: OCEAN,
Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.


B: OFFSHORE,
Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.

Under your logic I will rate a Oceanis CAT B.
...
Maybe you don't know but the NA and NE that constitute the technical committee that stand for the RCD have found those Cat misleading and have modified them, some years back and they do not exist like that anymore. In fact Ocean and Offshore means the same thing and it makes no sense to have different requirements to sail offshore than on Ocean. In fact some of the toughest places to sail, like cape Hatteras, the gulf stream or the Biscay gulf are not at the middle of an Ocean and some could even be called coastal.

The actual classification referees only sea conditions, independently where they happen they happen and in regarding category A it specifies that excludes sailing on F10 conditions.

Category A is just a minimum and that does not mean that some boats approved in Cat A are not able to sail relatively safely on F10 conditions.
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:50   #329
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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@ Polux...

Hang on, I think I might be having an epiphany...

Is it MOST WORDS WINS here?

Somebody could have said.
No, I think most irrelevant and meaningless posts win
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:54   #330
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Re: Oceanis 485 steering failure

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No, I think most irrelevant and meaningless posts win
CONGRATULATIONS POLUX THAT MEANS YOU'VE WON!!! By your own description, you have taken the cake, won grand prize, beat us to the finish line, beat us fair and square. The prize is yours for the taking. Good job
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