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Old 18-09-2012, 08:11   #1
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No fixed keel on a 47" boat

Nothing comes for free in boats so how bad is the trade off for a mono that can beach?

I can't entirely work out the concept of a mono without something heavy sitting below the hull is possible. However if it is, then great, you get awesome accommodation with a swim platform.

thoughts please as to the seakindliness and at anchor kindness of such a design, certainly i guess it would be fast.



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Old 18-09-2012, 08:25   #2
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Re: no fixed keel on a 47" boat

Not sure which boat you are looking at ...

I own a 45 foot aluminium centerboard yacht, which can beach with the centerboard up.

The lack of weight in the bottom of the keel is offset by the lead in the floor of the boat.

Performance is not too bad ... it doesn't point as high to windward as I had hoped, but it does better than I thought it would. I get better than 5 knots of boatspeed in 15 knots of wind with very conservative sails up (cutter jib, full main only) and I point at 55-60 degrees apparent wind.

Downwind you can pull up the keel and turn it into a big surfboard.

The centerboard takes up space in the living area ... not much you can do about that. The living area can be designed to minimise the nuisance, but wasn't on my boat

I've only just bought it ... so still working out sea and anchor kindliness ... it can get a bit rolly at anchor with side on waves ... but so do all boats. As to sea-kindliness ... the Garcia's and Ovni's seem to be disproportionately represented in high latitude sailing ... which sounds like a recommendation.
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Old 18-09-2012, 08:39   #3
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Re: no fixed keel on a 47" boat

These have a keel, it just lifts

Hake Yachts
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Old 18-09-2012, 08:46   #4
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Re: no fixed keel on a 47" boat

What a beauty
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Old 18-09-2012, 14:08   #5
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Re: No fixed keel on a 47" boat

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Originally Posted by sparau View Post
Nothing comes for free in boats so how bad is the trade off for a mono that can beach?

I can't entirely work out the concept of a mono without something heavy sitting below the hull is possible. However if it is, then great, you get awesome accommodation with a swim platform.

thoughts please as to the seakindliness and at anchor kindness of such a design, certainly i guess it would be fast.



One of our moderators <foolishsailor> owns as French built Trisbal 42 Aluminum boat that can be beached. I am sure he can advise you.

trisbal sailboat - Google Search

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Old 18-09-2012, 14:29   #6
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Re: No fixed keel on a 47" boat

You also have the Southerly line of yachts that are beachable-
www.*northshore.*co.*uk
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Old 18-09-2012, 19:01   #7
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Re: No fixed keel on a 47" boat



I assume you meant a 47' boat.
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Old 18-09-2012, 19:04   #8
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Does it have what they call a swing keel?
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Old 18-09-2012, 19:46   #9
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Re: No fixed keel on a 47" boat

No swing keel, if you look just aft of the forward mast, you'll see the "center board" in the up position.

Not sure why you'd want to beach the boat much, bottom paint tends to be expensive and doesn't do well when subjected to abrasives like sand.
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Old 18-09-2012, 19:49   #10
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Re: No fixed keel on a 47" boat

There are also twin keel sailboats that can be beached. You kind of get the advantage of not having the complexity of a swing keel and yet have the righting moment of a fixed keel. The downside is not having the greater righting moment of a single fixed keel.

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Old 18-09-2012, 20:21   #11
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Re: No fixed keel on a 47" boat

How about a 72' sailboat that is beachable.

The Charter Sailboat 'Ayacanora' - Vessel

Lifting keel, 14' keel down, 4.5' keel up. Met the original owner in S FL back in the mid eighties and got a tour of the boat. Very cool design.
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Old 18-09-2012, 21:33   #12
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Re: no fixed keel on a 47" boat

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What a beauty
pretty much what i was thinking, plus its a fair price with 3 cabins...

Thank you for the replies, i was worried being so flat, wide and with the weight only at floor level that at anchor it would roll like crazy and even possibly it would have near zero self righting.

as to beaching it, i dont really want to do that often but i do like the extreme shoal draft, 0.5m !
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Old 18-09-2012, 22:09   #13
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Re: No fixed keel on a 47" boat

Confusion Alert!!

Those of us using ad-blocker software are not seeing the two boats the OP is referencing because he posted advertisements for the boats he's talking about.

Further confusion may be resulting from the thread title, which references 47-inch boats, which tend not to be very fast.
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Old 18-09-2012, 22:32   #14
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Re: No fixed keel on a 47" boat

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Further confusion may be resulting from the thread title, which references 47-inch boats, which tend not to be very fast.
I don't know about that. Once saw a guy in a park lake with a 36" model Cigarette that would fly (figuratively speaking).

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Old 18-09-2012, 23:33   #15
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Re: no fixed keel on a 47" boat

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...
i was worried being so flat, wide and with the weight only at floor level that at anchor it would roll like crazy and even possibly it would have near zero self righting.

as to beaching it, i dont really want to do that often but i do like the extreme shoal draft, 0.5m !
The nearest thing I know of to a laboratory for investigating the capsize of blue-water sailing yachts is the Southern Ocean.

The boat that some would say started it all, Damien II,* has been sailing pretty much continuously since the late 1970's, spending the intervening decades in those waters almost exclusively, and when I last heard had still not been upside down.
Canoe body, no stub keel, swing keel which retracts completely into the canoe body.
In extreme conditions, the keel is sometimes intentionally retracted. There is an experienced body of opinion of those who spend their lives down there who consider there are more important attributes in such conditions than righting moment.

*(she wasn't the first, but the one which first came to wide public notice)

She was built (in steel, 6mm topside scantlings IIRC) at 46' LOA (not inch ) with a swing keel (ballasted tip, 3 or 400 gallons of fuel in the top), and a designed draught of I think a little over 3' (maybe 0.9m)

She was subsequently lengthened to 52', on a beach in Tasmania... steel is good like that.

I guess the limited interest in bluewater, lift keel in the Anglosphere is partly to do with cost, partly to do with fashion, partly to do with cruising grounds.... but I think partly to do with a tendency to dumb issues down by seeking single-figure ways to measure merit. (such as righting moment, or area under the righting curve). This is a static concept, whereas capsize is a very dynamic activity.

I first discovered this not in a yacht but in (of all things) a Fiat Bambina. As an adolescent, I was fond of cornering at and beyond the limit, on anything with wheels (and as a result, on bikes I probably put in more miles sliding alongside my motorbike on tarmac, gravel and dirt than some people do in the saddle)

On my way home from work I encountered some pea gravel on a deserted stretch of freshly built, deserted freeway (what we call a motorway) and was delighted to achieve a genuine four wheel drift. I'm confident that this represented a novel experience for this 500cc vehicle, which would lose a tug of war with any modern-day ride-on mower.

The interesting discovery came when I reached the end of the pea gravel and was suddenly looking at the world at an angle of about 50 degrees. To my delight, I was able to drive along on two wheels for a considerable distance, the 'heel angle' varying with the 'helm angle' in much the same way I was used to on small yachts. However it was pure chance that there had not been quite enough overturning moment offered by the sudden grip of the tyres on the road to flip her on her (partly fabric) roof.

What I'm saying is that a vehicle is relatively immune to rollover if it has little traction. Nobody rolls on an icy road ... until they hit the berm. This, I submit, applies to vessels, which helps to explain why a canoe-body with keel retracted is relatively immune to capsize when thrown bodily sideways by the water avalanching down the front face of a large wave.

There's another benefit which the OP alludes to attached inseparably to shoal draft. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels frustrated by the need to give interesting places a wide berth in fixed keel yachts.
To me such vessels are like a dolphin, in the sense that stranding is an existential threat, where a lift keel yacht is almost as amphibious as a seal - for whom stranding is a holiday and a chance to catch up on some sleep.

Which brings me back to expedition yachts: if you want to treat yourself to one of the most beautiful sets of study plans you'd ever find, splash out on Ed Joy's design for "Seal", for Hamish Laird.
or get a hint here:
Expedition Sail - Sailboat Seal
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