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Old 09-11-2014, 08:42   #46
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

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^ Wow, definitley don't want that happening. I had planned to haul it out if I do end up getting it.

The question is, whether or not it's even worth having it hauled out, or if I should just move on. I am meeting him today so he can start the engine. Thereis no wind, so I may see if he can at least hoist the sails and rig everrthing, so I can see that it'sfunctional.
There's positives and negatives to everything... Jim Cate has a rather sound opinion that this boat may be too neglected... Almost all others commenting are warning to walk away IF CERTAIN things can't be sorted... I think it's still worthy of a look if you can positively eliminate the "worst case" money and time sucking issues...

Ask about bottom jobs, cleaning, hauling... Don't know what the rate down there is, but hauling would likely be around $200 for 30ft... Well worth it if you don't get excellent answers... Which I suspect you won't...

One idea is to ask him to take hauling fees off the final agreed price if you buy...
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Old 09-11-2014, 12:26   #47
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

While you are messing about with the boat, be sure to try the head, fresh water pump, navigation lights, deck and cabin lights, radios, anchor and rode and associated equipment, winches, stove, fridge, etc. A good hard stream from a hose might detect topside leaks or leaky windows. Minor things all, but enough of them can be cause for knocking the price down, which is fair, after all.
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Old 09-11-2014, 16:05   #48
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Okay I just got back from looking at that C30 again, as well as a C25 that was close.

The C30:
Well, the truth comes out now because something DID seem strange with this guy...let me give you the whole run down...
He started the engine no problem using an external fuel tank, but there was white smoke and it idled a little rough. It Is the single cylinder yammer.
He drained the bilge out as much as possible, but the is definitely a lot of Oil/diesel inside the bilge. It smelled more like oil than diesel, but who knows.
The keel bolts are so gunked up with oily residue that I can't even see what condition they are in. I did see steady dripping water from the drive shaft, which he tightened and it went away, so I am thinking most of the liquid in the bilge came from there. Looking at the fuel tank, you can clearly see where there is a small leak near the top of the tank where the fuel line screws in, which explains the diesel smell.
I looked on the back of the boat and there are no signs of an outboard motor mount.
I looked very closely around the windows and where the rigging bolts to the deck for leaks. There are no signs of water anywhere, but I did notice that at one point, someone had put heavy duty backing plates on the bottom side of where the shrouds bolt to the deck...so I am assuming a previous owner also replaced the rigging when this was done, because it is also noticeably newer than the safety lines. The bottom side of the railing as also been reinforced with larger plates.

SO that KIND OF eliminated the engine issue...although it is in rough shape and I could see myself eventually going to an outboard instead.

Here's the kicker...When I told him I had to see the bottom before purchase, he showed me that the boat was chained to the dock. He can't afford to pay his slip anymore and owes the marina 900 dollars.

So, Is there anyway around this, short of paying the marina 900 dollars, so I can get it hauled out? The guy is obviously desperate. So while not knowing what's under it is bad, it's also a good way to lowball the hell out of this...

He said he was originally asking 15,000 and the boat DOES look to be in better condition than most other boats in that marina. there was some growth up top that he easily wiped off with a brush. He says all blisters were repaired 7 years ago when he had it hauled out and there was no catalina smile, plus he hasn't really taken the boat out much since then, let alone ran aground.

Give me a few hours and I will post some pictures that I took of key areas...
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Old 09-11-2014, 16:19   #49
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

I did look at a catalina 25 on the way out of that area. It was in great useable shape!
It has a mercury 9.9 that is two months old. he has all the paperwork from when he purchased it at west marine, it's barely been used.
He has a receipt for 4000 dollars where he completely redid the bottom this past July, including the swing keel, all the hardware and the winch for the keel.


It's a 1979 that had been raced a couple years ago when he purchased it. As a result the inside had been gutted out...however the sails are in really good condition, almost like new.
He admitted to not knowing the age of the rigging, but it does LOOK new. You can see where the safety lines look ancient in comparison, so they were definitely replaced at one point.

Also, the slip is only 100 a month and it's in a good spot.

Bad points:
- The windows need to be resealed, you can see where they leak and there is also fresh water in the bilge.

- deck needs to be painted, but is otherwise very solid.

- the lights aren't working, but he has a box with all new lights and wiring(may not need new wiring)...he also has a new, unused deep cycle battery.

-It's a little smaller than I wanted, but not such a bad thing since it seems very easy to handle compared to the 30 and I am used to smaller boats...It's still a viable option for staying over the weekend, I just have to bend over below deck.

- He is asking 4750 BBO, however I think I could get him down to around 4000. He is a motivated seller that has moved to a bigger boat.





Pretty much this boat is in great usable shape and most of the issues are cosmetic, except the windows...I would feel confident buying this boat without having it hauled out, based on the recent work he had done.

Only thing is, it is so much smaller than the 30.
I really want a boat like the 30, but I feel like I might be in over my head with it's potential issues, where the 25 isn't the size I'm looking for, but I think it might cut it and the condition is like night and day compared to the 30.
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Old 09-11-2014, 16:32   #50
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Darn. I think you ought to walk away from this one after all. Unless he gets smart and offers it at like 2k as is, where is. Just my opinion. Hopefully some others will chime in on this. But maybe if you both talk to the marina management they might be okay with a quick haulout. Are there any official looking seals on chain or locks? Was he served any papers? I think you might want to go talk to the harbor master WITHOUT the seller present, and get the straight scoop. Or revert to plan A and just walk away. There are a lot more 25 to 35 foot old boats for sale out there that you might be looking at. Many will have far fewer issues and way less drama involved.
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Old 09-11-2014, 16:45   #51
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnyVincent View Post
I did look at a catalina 25 on the way out of that area. It was in great useable shape!
It has a mercury 9.9 that is two months old. he has all the paperwork from when he purchased it at west marine, it's barely been used.
He has a receipt for 4000 dollars where he completely redid the bottom this past July, including the swing keel, all the hardware and the winch for the keel.


It's a 1979 that had been raced a couple years ago when he purchased it. As a result the inside had been gutted out...however the sails are in really good condition, almost like new.
He admitted to not knowing the age of the rigging, but it does LOOK new. You can see where the safety lines look ancient in comparison, so they were definitely replaced at one point.

Also, the slip is only 100 a month and it's in a good spot.

Bad points:
- The windows need to be resealed, you can see where they leak and there is also fresh water in the bilge.

- deck needs to be painted, but is otherwise very solid.

- the lights aren't working, but he has a box with all new lights and wiring(may not need new wiring)...he also has a new, unused deep cycle battery.

-It's a little smaller than I wanted, but not such a bad thing since it seems very easy to handle compared to the 30 and I am used to smaller boats...It's still a viable option for staying over the weekend, I just have to bend over below deck.

- He is asking 4750 BBO, however I think I could get him down to around 4000. He is a motivated seller that has moved to a bigger boat.





Pretty much this boat is in great usable shape and most of the issues are cosmetic, except the windows...I would feel confident buying this boat without having it hauled out, based on the recent work he had done.

Only thing is, it is so much smaller than the 30.
I really want a boat like the 30, but I feel like I might be in over my head with it's potential issues, where the 25 isn't the size I'm looking for, but I think it might cut it and the condition is like night and day compared to the 30.

Well the nearly new outboard is worth over 1k by itself. The boat is a mix of pluses and minuses but mainly I don't think you will be very comfortable on it. There is a tremendous difference between the 25 and the 27. With the cabin gutted it probably isn't ready for cruising or liveaboard. Does the motor have an alternator for charging the battery? Are there solar panels? If it was me I would start negotiating at like $2700. If he is truly ready to sell he will say $3k. Meanwhile keep looking for something more suitable and he can call you if he wants to make an irresistible offer. Just my opinion. This is a project boat, not a ready to sail boat. And it's a bit small.
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Old 09-11-2014, 17:32   #52
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Well, my current thoughts are that this guy with the C30 is up *&%!'s creek without a paddle.
He has a boat that barely runs, leaks, hasn't been out of the water in seven years, hasn't been registered since 2009, is chained to a dock because he can't afford 160 a month and now owes them 900 dollars, it's winter already...if he is hoping for income tax season to sell for his 7K price range, that's a long wait when you can't afford the payment and owe 900 already...how long before the marina has the right to take his boat?

I hate to prey on people...but it's only fair when I have no way of seeing the extent of the work that needs to be done...

Should I offer him 2000-2500 and see if he gives in after a month or so of literally no one showing interest in his boat, meanwhile the marina is putting the pressure on him?
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Old 09-11-2014, 19:25   #53
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Some ideas: Have you considered a cruising catamaran? There are lots of them, and most have shallow draft. The main thing is, they have huge amounts of living space as compared to a monohull. Performance-wise, most cruising cats tend to be underpowered, so they are dog slow under sail in less than about 12 knots. On the other hand, they are easily driven by outboards/saildrives, and with two screws, maneuvering is a cinch.

I hate to bash a boat, but the OI 41 could be the worst sailing boat ever conceived. We were involved with the charter trade in the VIs, so we got to sail them some. In most conditions the boats won't tack without using the motor. Upwind, they make about 20 degrees leeway -- if the water is clear you can see a trail of vortex where the keel is cavitating; the first time we saw this we thought we had a line caught on the keel! They do have lots of room below, though ...

You already have the right idea: Get a boat that beats to windward efficiently. Of course, you'd much rather cruise around on a reach, but of course that isn't always possible. If you find yourself with an upwind passage, it's just so nice to be in a boat that handles it well. That means, stay away from anything with a classic full keel, for starters.

For the kind of money you're talking about, strong and durable means either thick fiberglass or sandwich construction (either foam or balsa core). Stay away from any thin-skinned fiberglass boat. Heavier boats are, of course, not as fast but they do last longer and are more "sea kindly". Just make sure they have enough sail plan to drive the heavier boat through the water.
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Old 09-11-2014, 21:53   #54
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnyVincent View Post
Well, my current thoughts are that this guy with the C30 is up *&%!'s creek without a paddle.
He has a boat that barely runs, leaks, hasn't been out of the water in seven years, hasn't been registered since 2009, is chained to a dock because he can't afford 160 a month and now owes them 900 dollars, it's winter already...if he is hoping for income tax season to sell for his 7K price range, that's a long wait when you can't afford the payment and owe 900 already...how long before the marina has the right to take his boat?

I hate to prey on people...but it's only fair when I have no way of seeing the extent of the work that needs to be done...

Should I offer him 2000-2500 and see if he gives in after a month or so of literally no one showing interest in his boat, meanwhile the marina is putting the pressure on him?
If you think it's worth risking the money. You could possibly end up with a deal you are glad you made. Certainly you could tell him sorry but that's the most you can offer without you and a surveyor seeing the bottom. Of course it could turn out to be a waste of $2k, but sometimes you eat the alligator, sometimes the alligator eats you. And if you don't get it, that's okay. Plenty more out there to choose from. I'm kinda liking that plan.
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Old 10-11-2014, 06:33   #55
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

$15k is:

Nucking Futz for a Cat 30 except in bristol condition with lotsa extras...

Mine is a west coast boat that I'd like 20 for, but know that 15 is likely the reality... Night and Day...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...or-131967.html

Go talk to the marina dockmaster (alone), and ask them the straight scoop...
1. Is there a way to get the boat pulled?
2. What is their policy on liens/being in arrears 1-2-6 months...

A) Without pulling it, offer him $2500 (maybe even if the dockmaster says you can) If the bottom is bad and you have a DIY yard close (check rates) You could fix bottom problems yourself... Lotta work, but not too materials spendy besides yard rates... You're looking at 1 month stay if you DON'T have to dry the boat out... Maybe nothing wrong at all besides paint?

B) Pull it, make an offer based on what you find ... AND... What you already know... $5k?

C) Decide if the 25 is big enough for you... $4k seems right...
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Old 10-11-2014, 07:19   #56
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

I would think marina would let you haul it if they stand to get you to pay the back fees. You could also have a diver check it out (I don't know how clear water is) for keel separation etc. I am used to seeing these boats in Calif in good shape at low prices so hard to get my head around the price for such a project.
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Old 10-11-2014, 07:22   #57
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

The area where the op is boat shopping isn't clear enough for a diver to inspect anything on the hull. However, the good news is that anything here with the slightest semblance of bottom coat usually fares well for several years with nothing but slime.


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Old 10-11-2014, 08:38   #58
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Yeah visibility in that water is probably less than 1 ft. It's extremely muddy.

He actually suggested the diver as well. I told him I could get a surveyors opinion, but I didn't think that was going to work since you can't see in the water.
(after a while I could clearly see he is desperate to sell the boat....yet he is also so sick of it that he doesn't want to put in any work to get the thing sold...which is why I'm thinking he may let it go for much less than he is asking just to rid himself of the headache and pay off his debt.)

Anyways right now he thinks I am calling surveyors to ask about the diver option, but I'm not going to waste my time. I'm going to shoot him a text in a couple hours and let him know the surveyor strongly suggests I haul the boat out and that I will buy it as is for 2500 and leave it at that.


As for the 25...I'm on the fence about it. It's in really good sailing condition and the motor is new.
All I would need to do is work on cosmetic things like paint, fixing up the interior and upgrading the electrical system...maybe add a solar panel. Point is, at least I could sail it in the meantime with no worries(I'm a chronic worrier) while I upgrade it for cruising.
The biggest job is that it needs new portholes, but I could do that gradually as well. They are leaking badly yet.
I'm just thinking I would eventually want a bigger boat, but I could always sell later on and probably get a decent return on it, plus I wouldn't be making such a big jump in boat size.
Who knows, maybe I would end up keeping it. The swing keel would be nice because the water can get pretty shallow here in some areas of the bay, especially in the area that these marinas are.


I'll see what the guy with the C30 says. Initially he will say no, but I think he may buckle after a while.

BTW where are you guys finding all these cheap boats at?
I looked on every for sale site and couldn't find any C30, anywhere for under 14K. C25's seem to run 5-10K and most of the one's in the 5K range are in worse sailing shape than what I looked at. The interior may not be gutted like this one, but that's the least of my worries.
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Old 10-11-2014, 10:19   #59
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Okay he seemed mildly offended with my offer of 2500, but he did say he would let me know if something changes...probably for the best anyways, it seemed like a big headache.

So now I'm thinking I'll offer 3500 for the C25, using the justification that new windows are going to cost over a grand for just the parts. In the mean time, continue shopping while the sellers reconsider their position...it is hard to pass up the 25, the new engine alone is over 2000 dollars anywhere I've seen it...The long shaft, which is what he has, is 3,000 actually... plus he had the bottom redone and the sails are in great shape, made by a local sailmaker.


has anyone had any luck just resealing the old windows, or is it best to replace them?
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Old 10-11-2014, 10:26   #60
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Don't buy the 25 unless it is the right boat for you. You are starting to experience "dock walkers fatigue" and run the risk of buying the wrong boat for you. There's a big difference between a C30 and 25. Heck... there's a big difference between a C30 and a C27. Some of the 27's come with the little diesel also.
It's not unusual for the one lung yanmar to idle rough... they all do...
If you want to see the bottom, talk to the yard/marina and tell them you are willing to pay the past bill IF you buy the boat, but need to see the bottom and see if that works. It's in their interest for it to sell... otherwise they end up with it and have to pay to demolish it or auction it.
Is it between two finger piers? You can try to crank the boat over on a heel using halyards, all around dock lines etc at least far enough to scrub it off and see if there are any obvious issues. I did this once on a Mega 30 that looked great above the water but was loaded with quarter size blisters below the waterline.
As mentioned above, you could just offer the seller $3k and roll the dice. Only you know... as you've seen the boat.
But at least it runs.... not unusual for a shallow bilge boat like that to be messy in the bilge.... sounds like there is a fuel leak somewhere though... I would assume the tank needs replacing until proven otherwise.
If you buy it you need to take care of that pronto so you can get the bilge pump operational again without pumping diesel all over the water!
*pump the tank dry into containers
*remove tank or cut the top off in place
*replace the tank with a premade plastic one $150(?) that will fit in the space or inside the old tank if you cut the top off it.
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