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Old 03-11-2014, 14:28   #16
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Howdy Vinny!

I read your intro and all of the comments posted by others.

Since you like the speed of a beach cat catamaran (and I enjoyed flying on one hull while out on a trapeze on a cat), I doubt you will find the speed sensation you want unless you buy a monohull or multihull that is built to go fast.

Some larger racing dinghies and racing boats can sail relatively fast (compared to a cruiser mono) with a crew of 2-4. But, most of the faster ones do not have a cabin suitable for cruising.

As you also want to do some "camping" and cruising (onboard sleeping). So, a racing boat hull will not have the amenities you want (water, bunk, stove, head).

While the price is higher than your budget, a used Corsair F-27 Trimaran is a relatively fast multihull that has the stuff needed for overnight camping and I think it would be good for Texas coastal sailing or lake sailing AND it can be pulled behind a truck (the amas fold in for over the road). They also make a F-24 (used about $25K) but it may be too small for your sleeping aboard needs, but could certainly carry the gear for beach camping. I was in a race on SF bay on a monohull when a F-27 passed us, going much faster, which gave me an appreciation for their speed compared to a mono going as fast as possible.

If I was in your boatshoes and wanted to haul some stuff, do beaching of the boat, sail in shallow bays, and wanted something faster than the typical monohull, I would try to get the Corsair, or save for one.

My Suggestion for $10K budget: Buy a monohull ($5k) to camp/cruise/sail on with friends, and buy a modern windsurfer ($1-2K) for speed fixes. That way you get to try TWO new forms of sailing.

Some of the cheaper used foot monos like the Cals can be fine for day sailing or overnight sleeping in lakes and harbors. I have seen them up to 27 feet for about $5K. I just would not expect them to be fast. They can be good for a day of sailing on the water, but I would never expect the same thrill of speed you get in a catamaran or trimaran.

Also, the choice between a "trailer sailor" or a boat you will keep in a marina slip is important too. Having a trailer sailor boat would allow you to truck it to lakes or other coastal places without having to sail there. I have seen several very nice trailer sailors that look great for cruising. Most will be used and in the $20K+ range in price, but some are less.
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Old 03-11-2014, 15:34   #17
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Here is another small Trimaran that is not too far above your budget. Since you like speed, you might look for something like this.

Firefly 25, 1985 $16K
Owner claims sailed up to 16knots and previous owner up to 20knots.

How does that compare to a typical Cal 25 or Catalina 25 for speed? Most smaller boats such as those are average about 6 knots (and that is considered or seems fast for them).
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Old 03-11-2014, 16:26   #18
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnyVincent View Post
Oh trust me I am no expert, I've just been lucky enough to be around a fleet of good beachcat sailors who have shown me a lot when it comes beachcats, but I'm clueless when it comes to other boats.
How would you say the sailing characteristics differed from the cats?

Your super cat didn't happen to have a yellow tramp and yellow sails, did it?
I didn't have a Supercat, but it would have been nice to have owned one. I had two Hobie 16's, a Nacra 6.0, and a Nacra F-17.

I sold the F-17 to a guy down your way when I lived in Pensacola. I can't quite remember him but he had a friend named Mike that got him into the beach cat scene. Maybe you know him.

The Nacra 6.0 was a beast and great for heavier weather. The Nacra F-17 was fast but not so good in the large waves we encountered during the Sea buoy race which took us 3 miles out into the Gulf thru Pensacola Pass in May when the winds could be heavy and out of the East.

My experienced with these catamarans may lead me to a heavier more narrow boat with long over hangs. (Bristol 32 maybe) The 6.0 and the F-17 both have about the same LWL as their names.

We had a really rough day going out Pensacola Pass on one race where all the new boat were getting beat up and a Hobie 16 with hulls shaped like an old monohull cruiser cruised right thru those big waves with no problems and although they couldn't beat the hotshot new cats boat for boat over the 19 mile course (most of which was in protected waters) the H16 easily won the event on handicap.


Here are a couple videos of the Nacra F-17



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Old 03-11-2014, 17:37   #19
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Welcome,
I'm a Galveston bay beach cat sailor as well as lead mine owner.
Unless you go the sport boat route, don't expect the same performance from any monohull as your Hobie.
I've got a NACRA f16, have had an inter17.....I sail this boat for the thrill. I sail the big boat for comfort and relaxation.


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Old 04-11-2014, 07:12   #20
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
Since you like the speed of a beach cat catamaran (and I enjoyed flying on one hull while out on a trapeze on a cat), I doubt you will find the speed sensation you want unless you buy a monohull or multihull that is built to go fast.

Some larger racing dinghies and racing boats can sail relatively fast (compared to a cruiser mono) with a crew of 2-4. But, most of the faster ones do not have a cabin suitable for cruising.
I do love the thrill of the catamaran, but I am willing to give it up for the feel of a larger boat and to have a cabin. I like going fast, but I also would like to be able to get the boat underway and just cruise, relax and not have to worry about much.

That dragonfly looks pretty sweet but 16k is a little high for me right now and I'm a big guy, that cabin looks tiny...if have to bring the girlfriend along, she is going to want the kitchen, bathroom ect
I would definitely prefer a catamaran, but I am looking into the monohull due to my budget, with the understanding that it's going to be nothing like my current boat in terms of performance.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
Some of the cheaper used foot monos like the Cals can be fine for day sailing or overnight sleeping in lakes and harbors. I have seen them up to 27 feet for about $5K. I just would not expect them to be fast. They can be good for a day of sailing on the water, but I would never expect the same thrill of speed you get in a catamaran or trimaran.

Also, the choice between a "trailer sailor" or a boat you will keep in a marina slip is important too.
I definitely want a larger boat, so I can justify keeping it at a marina. I live far from the water and I dread having to trailer my current boat all that distance, every weekend I want to go out.
At first I was looking at a few tartan 27's in the area, because I heard they were built well and they are cheap.

Then I saw the Catalina 30 and I really like that boat. I love the big cabin on them. I am 6'4" and I like they have a 6'7" head room. I also like that there were a lot of them made and they seem easy to find, especially when I need parts.
My concern with the Catalina 30 is how well it was built. Why are they so cheap for such a big boat? I don't plan on venturing out into the gulf anytime soon, but if I did eventually want to after getting experience, how well would it hold up in coastal waters?
I don't want to be worried every time the weather gets rough. I am willing to sacrifice cabin space for peace of mind in rough weather. How well would it compare to say, a tartan 27 in that respect? Both boats seem to be within my price range and available locally.
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Old 04-11-2014, 11:00   #21
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New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

In regards to a Catalina 30.....if maintained properly you'll give up and be sucking your thumb in the fetal position before the boat is in any serious structural danger from the weather.


Edit........I'm not saying you're the thumb sucking type, I don't know (as a generalization).


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Old 04-11-2014, 12:11   #22
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

So lets just say hypothetically, and trust me this is completely hypothetical at this point; I decide after years of sailing the bay and the coast near Galveston that I get bored and decide to cruise along the Texas coast, possibly as far south as mexico...

No worries, or should I be looking at replacing the Catalina 30 at that point?
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Old 04-11-2014, 12:20   #23
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnyVincent View Post
So lets just say hypothetically, and trust me this is completely hypothetical at this point; I decide after years of sailing the bay and the coast near Galveston that I get bored and decide to cruise along the Texas coast, possibly as far south as mexico...

No worries, or should I be looking at replacing the Catalina 30 at that point?
As an example, one fellow sailed a Bristol 22 from Washington State to Australia.

Two Contessa 26's have circumnavigated. One by an 18 year old girl.

Robin Lee Graham sailed about 3/4 the way around the globe on a 24' Lapworth Sloop, and a couple guys crossed the Atlantic on a 20' Beach Cat.

I'm thinking a Catalina 30 can handle the Texas Coast to Mexico.
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Old 04-11-2014, 13:20   #24
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

LOL at crossing the Atlantic on a 20ft beach cat! That would be insane. I wonder where they put their supplies. I'd imagine they made relatively good time, anyways.
Hopefully sailing with Casey in his 27 footer works out and I will get an idea of what it is all about then.

Anyways, with my budget, I will probably end up getting whatever I find a deal on, but there is a Catalina 30 nearby that I will likely go take a look at. I just love the inside, it's huge.
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Old 04-11-2014, 13:22   #25
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

The mid 70s to early 80s mass produced boats like the Catalinas and Cals are not cheap cause they suck, which they dont. They are cheap because they are 30 to 40 years old and there are so many of them available. They are very tough boats and many of them will still be on the water 40 years from now. But you will be constantly replacing little plastic or aluminum bits and pieces due to decades of exposure to the elements, and you want to keep an eye on any wood bulkheads or other structural members, chainplates, and balsa cored decks. Also be advised that a 40 year old raw water cooled engine could be ready to let go at any time, so figure a rebuilt diesel or maybe a new Beta diesel into your near future budget, or conversion to electric drive. A lot of these boats have Atomic 4 gas engines that are by all logic well beyond their lifespan. An Atomic that is freshwater cooled might be in excellent shape inside, though, and there is a huge user group that is very helpful and informative regarding upgrades and maintenance on these old motors.

Btw, I live aboard my Cal 2-27 that I bought for 2k. I recently could have bought a Catalinas 27 for 1k, with a non running Lister air cooled diesel, and I am pretty good with those on one lung plants and could have got it running, but I let it go. You can definitely get one of these boats for half your 10k budget, and have the rest for upgrades and repairs.

These boats push nicely with a 6hp long shift outboard, btw. So a boat with a froze or blown engine could be a real steal. A motor mount and a new outboard and you are good. The old engine room becomes more living or storage space if you don't want to install a new inboard or fix the old one.

Make sure the boat you buy as your first cruiser is in all respects ready to sail, though. Best way to make sure is to actually go sailing with the seller. That is a great supplement to a survey!

Make, sure you got a slip for the boat.
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Old 04-11-2014, 13:43   #26
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Hi Again.

Take my advice with a grain of salt. I do not own a Catalina and I am not 6'4" tall.

I am responding to two points and one question you made above:
1. I am 6' 4"
2. GF wants bathroom etc.
3. Will a Catalina 30 be good enough to sail to Gulf of Mexico?

1. I think you should check the forum archives as other people who are about your height have asked about headroom on boats. Unfortunately, most of those boats are going to be much more expensive than $10K budget. That said, I am only 6' tall and I hate hitting my head on things and low height cabins (without adequate headroom) really bug me. On the small trimarans I posted earlier, I am not aware of their headroom. Smaller boats tend to have 6' or less. Some you must duck or sit in the cabin.

2. I think an enclosed (private) head (not just a portapotty in the main cabin) is a good feature that will make most women more comfortable on a boat. In other words, I consider it valuable IF you are taking friends and females with you. Men and kids too. Many smaller boats do NOT have an enclosed head, many have simply a portapotty under the V berth.

3. If you gave me a Catalina 30 with sound rigging and a working engine of some type (inboard or outboard), I would not hesitate to use it on the Bay or Gulf. Some will say you don't need an engine, but I would not want to be in busy shipping lanes of Galveston (ship channel) without some form of engine. I would even take it to Mexico (with proper preparation for offshore voyage). People have traveled much further with less. For your intended bay sailing, I think it would be a nice boat.
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Old 06-11-2014, 06:50   #27
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster View Post
The mid 70s to early 80s mass produced boats like the Catalinas and Cals are not cheap cause they suck, which they dont. They are cheap because they are 30 to 40 years old and there are so many of them available. They are very tough boats and many of them will still be on the water 40 years from now. But you will be constantly replacing little plastic or aluminum bits and pieces due to decades of exposure to the elements, and you want to keep an eye on any wood bulkheads or other structural members, chainplates, and balsa cored decks. Also be advised that a 40 year old raw water cooled engine could be ready to let go at any time, so figure a rebuilt diesel or maybe a new Beta diesel into your near future budget, or conversion to electric drive. A lot of these boats have Atomic 4 gas engines that are by all logic well beyond their lifespan. An Atomic that is freshwater cooled might be in excellent shape inside, though, and there is a huge user group that is very helpful and informative regarding upgrades and maintenance on these old motors.

Btw, I live aboard my Cal 2-27 that I bought for 2k. I recently could have bought a Catalinas 27 for 1k, with a non running Lister air cooled diesel, and I am pretty good with those on one lung plants and could have got it running, but I let it go. You can definitely get one of these boats for half your 10k budget, and have the rest for upgrades and repairs.

These boats push nicely with a 6hp long shift outboard, btw. So a boat with a froze or blown engine could be a real steal. A motor mount and a new outboard and you are good. The old engine room becomes more living or storage space if you don't want to install a new inboard or fix the old one.

Make sure the boat you buy as your first cruiser is in all respects ready to sail, though. Best way to make sure is to actually go sailing with the seller. That is a great supplement to a survey!

Make, sure you got a slip for the boat.
+1 on all accounts.... Great Post MonsterMan...
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Old 07-11-2014, 17:20   #28
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

I think you are definitely headed in the right direction. I don't imagine you'll have much trouble sailing a 25-30 ft monohull. A 30' boat is very versatile, easily single handed and docked once you get the hang of it. Lots of room on board, especially if you go with something like the Catalina. Something in the 25 range is very easy to sail, dock etc. So also a good choice, but you're comfortable cruising range may feel a little bit limited (yes, I know people cross oceans in 25 foot boats, but it really doesn't sound like much fun to me). I wouldn't go over 30. Things just get complicated over 30, there are a lot of systems to maintain (costly both in terms of money and time), big hulls to paint, big sails to tack and set etc. I agree with an earlier poster, get something from the late 70's. They're cheap to purchase, very toughly built and you can always upgrade them later if you chose. I personally wouldn't pay much over $10 000 for a 30 foot boat of that age, there just isn't any need to.
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Old 07-11-2014, 17:57   #29
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

Okay, so I looked at a catalina 30 today. 1977. it is slipped at a good spot for where I will be sailing, which is transferrable.

good:
original sails look to be in good shape, very crisp.
boat is only 7500 OBO
ports have been resealed
only model around, already at a slip where. could sail in the waters I intend on. interior in relatively good shape, plus I can stand upright.

bad:
hitting the deck with a screwdriver, there seems to be a different pitch sound that is barely noticeable near on of the shrouds.

also on deck, there is a barely noticeable cracking noise when you step in an area about the size of a shoe. We walked the whole deck and thats the only spot that isn't solid as a rock.

has original rigging, although it looks like it's in good condition...he also mentioned that he put new backing under through hoke rail fittings, but never redid the thru hull rigging fittings.

when I opened the bilge, it was full of water. is this a bad sign? he claims the pump works.

diesel engine woildn't start and cabin smells of diesel. he said the tank had sluge in it and he had been using an extrernal fuel tank, which he didn't have...would likely swap for an outboard.

Looks like it's been sitting a long time, although he claims to have sailed 6 months ago.

Although he claims to have had a bottom job done seven years ago, he says the seacocks were okay and he never replaced them.

Seems to have been a repair done near the roller fuller, but he says it was there when he got the boat. seems old, I belive him. very small area.





Where do i go from here? should I get a survey done?
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Old 07-11-2014, 18:05   #30
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Re: New sailor, trying to narrow down what to get for my next boat.

I'm not sure I'd bother getting it surveyed, the price sounds too high. Hasn't had it out of the water in 7 years? Engine won't start? Fuel tank is shot? Sounds like some pretty hefty problems. For $7500 you should be able to get a boat this size that functions. I don't know the boat market in Texas, but my impression is there are a lot of used boats there, so it should be a buyers market. I think you'd be buying a lot of head aches with this boat. Things like diesel tanks and new engines are not easy repairs.
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