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Old 22-05-2017, 10:45   #1
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New Sailboats

Looking to buy a new 44-49 ft monohull. Have experience with pre-2008 crash manufacturers, many of which are out of business or simply no longer producing sailboats. New manufacturing is obviously more limited. Having a hard time seeing price justified difference between say Bavaria/Hanse vs. Beneteau/Jeanneau. I do understand the “excessive” price justification for a Oyster or Amel, which are more architectural works of art with tons of high interior upgrades for those with unlimited cash to blow (not me). I note the price for a new or used Hanse is half what it is for Beneteau/Jeanneau. I would appreciate any thoughts on this price disparity given limited choices for new boats. Looking for user knowledge not what a salesman is trying to push past me. Just looking for a rock-solid boat design with some nice modern touches regarding interior. My question is simply for those with new boats or knowledge, your thought on the reason for this disparity in price and any welcome recommendations.

In anticipation of the question why not used, we would consider used of recent design. I plan to retire early(ish) and live on board 24/7/365 with wife and two daughters. Would be nice to have the latest upgrades and innovations afforded by those manufacturers moving forward. Obviously, electronics being a major advancement that is ongoing. Also like the greater beam of more current designs as it relates to roominess in cabin.
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Old 22-05-2017, 20:15   #2
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Re: New Sailboats

Price difference between Hanse and Jeanneau is mostly due to the difference in the cost of labor in East and West Europe. According to my observation of current built quality of "mass production" sailboats on the US market, the leaders are Catalina and Marlow-Hunter followed by Jeanneau. New boat prices generally reflect that.
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Old 23-05-2017, 03:20   #3
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Re: New Sailboats

This year I have sold my boat and started to look around for new one.
I have checked Hanse - Dehler (one shipyard), Jeanneau , Dufour.
Finally Beneteau.
One day in Hanse shipyard in Greiswald showed me that it is a question of my acceptance to mass production or spending 3 times more money for similar in size, boat from shipyard.
It is always good to remember that one day you will have to sell your boat and even it is build very well it was built in shipyard nobody knows... Easier you will sell your boat if is well known.
For my plans sailing with passat winds production boat is enough - do not plan to sail far N or S. So spacious cabins are advantageous and you will like them.
Of course several upgrades will have to be done but still have a look for all these people sailing across Atlantic in ARC every year in production boats.
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Old 23-05-2017, 09:20   #4
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Re: New Sailboats

Freshman, great info. Thank you. I imagine cost of labor and the mass production format is a big reason for the price difference. My wife and I are leaning toward a new Beneteau Oceanis 45. Curious if you went to the Beneteau plant and your thoughts. I believe Jeanneau and Beneteau in the 40-50 ft range are manufactured in the same factory owned by Beneteau. However, I simply gleaned that info from another posting not on personal knowledge.

I know many have jumped on the Cat bandwagon for obvious reasons. Large living area, more and bigger windows, family friendly, easy storage of dinghy and water toys, etc. I am a Mono old school and cannot envision going Cat for all the other advantages of a Mono.
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Old 23-05-2017, 09:53   #5
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Re: New Sailboats

Why not consider a used Oyster? Give Matthew a call at the Oyster brokerage.
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Old 23-05-2017, 10:12   #6
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Re: New Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Why not consider a used Oyster? Give Matthew a call at the Oyster brokerage.
Bingo. Go calculate one- and five-year depreciation on a new boat.

Aren't many- if not all- Beneteau and Jeanneau sold in USA now made in USA? From my observations, B& J are better built than Hanse and Bavaria. YMMV.
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Old 23-05-2017, 10:16   #7
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Re: New Sailboats

I would take a Hanse over a beneteau/Jeaneau/catalina/Hunter Any day. Hanse has always been considered to be a level or two in quality ABOVE the BJCH crowd!!!
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Old 23-05-2017, 10:25   #8
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Re: New Sailboats

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Originally Posted by JonCharles66 View Post
Would be nice to have the latest upgrades and innovations afforded by those manufacturers moving forward. Obviously, electronics being a major advancement that is ongoing.
I wouldn't buy a boat based on the electronics. Electronics are going to be a package listed as a line item on a new boat. You can update the electronics on a used boat just as easily. I wouldn't spend an extra 100K on a boat to save 5-10K on electronics. That makes no sense to me.

I wouldn't consider the cost of an Amel or Oyster as justified by the fit and finish of the cabin and staterooms. IMHO there is a lot more to their overall construction beneath the sole.
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Old 23-05-2017, 10:53   #9
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Re: New Sailboats

I really enjoy diverse opinions. If I was independently wealthy and money not on object, I would be standing at the Oyster facility with a smile and a big check in my hand. Unbelievable boats, you might even say staggeringly beautiful. Problem is a new Oyster 475 tags out at about $1.2 million plus taxes. That is a big hit. If money was no object it would be an easy call.

However, you can buy a 44-46 ft Hanse, Beneteau, Janneau loaded out the door for about $400,000. If working within a "budget" it is hard to justify the extra expense. With a retail of $1.2 on a new Oyster 475, you would need to be getting pretty far into older models to approach a good condition sale price of $400,000. I do not mind paying a bit more for a new Hanse, Beneteau, Janneau, etc since the hit is not that significant and you do get the latest of everything plus a custom order build.

That said, I also have no issue with any used boats. There are some gems in a great price range. I recognize there are many people with extra cash that buy them on a whim, rarely use them, and then sell moving on to other endeavors. That would also be a great choice.
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Old 23-05-2017, 11:12   #10
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Re: New Sailboats

[quote]I do understand the “excessive” price justification for a Oyster or Amel, which are more architectural works of art with tons of high interior upgrades for those with unlimited cash to blow (not me).

I can't afford that class of boat either. There is nothing wrong with that. I've owned what would be considered production, 'economy' class boats as well. I was just pointing out that the cost difference is a bit more than just 'bling'.

Lamborghini and Rolls Royce don't justify their cost by the custom leatherwork alone either.
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Old 23-05-2017, 11:14   #11
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Re: New Sailboats

Jon,

It's more than just the trim or electronics package on any of these boats. Here let me give you a good example:

Picture 1: The double oversized shrouds coming down on our Oyster.

Picture 2: The single shroud on the Beneteau in our neighboring slip.

Oyster two. Beneteau one.

You need to check these details out on any boat, no matter what the make. It's much more than the electronics package and blinking lights. Deck hardware is important.
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Old 23-05-2017, 11:14   #12
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Re: New Sailboats

Trust me, I went down this same route or similar one to begin with.
Take your 400K and go buy the most Oyster or other high quality boat that money can buy. You will end up with a much better boat, much. The difference is astonishing. Once you really begin to educate yourself about how boats are built, you will be amazed at the difference.
It is the difference between fine hand crafted solid wood furniture and Ikea particle board using furniture as a comparison.
In a few years it may still be worth 400K or close to that, while the Hanse, Hunter etc may be worth half that.
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Old 23-05-2017, 11:26   #13
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Re: New Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonCharles66 View Post
Looking to buy a new 44-49 ft monohull. Have experience with pre-2008 crash manufacturers, many of which are out of business or simply no longer producing sailboats. New manufacturing is obviously more limited. Having a hard time seeing price justified difference between say Bavaria/Hanse vs. Beneteau/Jeanneau. I do understand the “excessive” price justification for a Oyster or Amel, which are more architectural works of art with tons of high interior upgrades for those with unlimited cash to blow (not me). I note the price for a new or used Hanse is half what it is for Beneteau/Jeanneau. I would appreciate any thoughts on this price disparity given limited choices for new boats. Looking for user knowledge not what a salesman is trying to push past me. Just looking for a rock-solid boat design with some nice modern touches regarding interior. My question is simply for those with new boats or knowledge, your thought on the reason for this disparity in price and any welcome recommendations.

In anticipation of the question why not used, we would consider used of recent design. I plan to retire early(ish) and live on board 24/7/365 with wife and two daughters. Would be nice to have the latest upgrades and innovations afforded by those manufacturers moving forward. Obviously, electronics being a major advancement that is ongoing. Also like the greater beam of more current designs as it relates to roominess in cabin.
People who spend a lot of money on something will always find a way to justify it.
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Old 23-05-2017, 11:35   #14
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Re: New Sailboats

Since the demise of the US sailboat industry, your likely spectrum of manufacturers will be European or, secondarily, Asian.

Oysters are indeed pretty (when the keel is still attached - stay calm Kenomac), but are truly the high price spread when it comes to value for money.

A couple suggestions:

Don't overlook Catalina. There is much to recommend this company.

Hallberg-Rassy 46-48. Here is a nice one in Greece asking about $300K:
1998 Hallberg-Rassy 46 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

While not my cup of tea, a lot of happy sailors are out there in Island Packets. Maybe something there for you?

Based on my family's experiences, cruising with two daughters, a center cockpit boat worked very well for us. The second head was invaluable, as was the separation of staterooms at opposite ends of the boat.

Figure out your planned future destinations as that will influence your keel choice, water/fuel requirements, etc.

I have seen some Little Harbor yachts on the market. They are one of the few Asian-built boats I would trust. Impeccable workmanship and well depreciated at this point.

Good luck in your endeavors.
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Old 23-05-2017, 11:45   #15
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Re: New Sailboats

As for the latest electronics - who cares?! You can replace the entire suite of electronics for less than $10K (less autopilot). But will you really need to do so?

Harder to change are the sailing characteristics of the boat, the tankage or the number of berths.

Engine replacement could run $20-30,000. Sails could easily be ten grand.

Instruments are, to a degree, toys for big boys. While useful, their place is as assistants to the sailor, not as substitutes for knowledge, experience or good seamanship.

Don't be swayed by the gadgets and widgets.

Just my opinion.
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