New Sailboats

[Lost Horizons]

I will pass on lifting keels; they are good for trailerable boats as a necessary evil. There are 45 footers and even larger boats with 5 foot draft. Another option is to go smaller, which is a possibility.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

I will pass on lifting keels; they are good for trailerable boats as a necessary evil. There are 45 footers and even larger boats with 5 foot draft. Another option is to go smaller, which is a possibility.

Yeah, the wing keels on Catalina and others can bring it down to 5' without sacrificing too much sailing ability. Everyone has their hot buttons.

Matt

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Yeah, the wing keels on Catalina and others can bring it down to 5' without sacrificing too much sailing ability. Everyone has their hot buttons.

Matt

Our Hunter 450 had a wing keel and 5.5ft draft, it sailed terribly when compared to other deeper draft boats. I can't imagin how something with less draft will sail.

If draft is a major concern, get a catamaran.

[CbroTheDude]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond

CBroTheDude: Disagree.

We were in the market for a well built, good sailing, 50' to 60' sailboat and did want to spend Oyster or Hylas prices. That did NOT put us in one builder's sweet spot alone.
We had all of the builders chasing us for a couple of years and took our time making the decision.

For us the choices seem to be:

1. French boats like Benetau, Jeannau and Dufour
2. New Balkan builders like Azure/Euphoria
3. German boats (Hanse, Moody)
4. Used

We did not like the general build quality, fit and finish for the French boats. Not only did they leak in Annapolis, but they also had interiors that looked like "IKEA slap together". Not quite the fit and finish we had in our current Hylas and wanted in something new.

The Azure/Euphoria are the same company but the larger boats were priced more like the Hylas and Oyster. Nice boat, but we did not want to spend that much. Azure is the smaller and Euphoria the larger.

If you are OK spending a lot of money for a used boat, there are a lot of options. In our case, we did not want to live with someone elses choices. You can get a lot more boat at times, but we wanted new.. So be it.

The Hanse had the benefit of a similarly low price to the Benetau and Jeanneau with the advantage of (our view) better build quality and lots of options to select from in customizing.

The Moody is Hanse's remake of the former UK brand. Built on the same floor as the Hanse, it offers single level living with no companionway steps. You step down to the sleeping cabins once you are in the salon (like a catamaran). The raised salon gave you the ability to sail inside via joystick from the nav station. Again, nice boat, but a different style and not for us.

Time will tell.

Rick

I'll appear like I repeat myself but again you wanted to spend oyster or hylas prices money, yet most of your choices show that you were more akin with spending a lot less on a new boat with a high level quality feeling, which places you right in the Hanse target market. Not that it means anything bad, don't take me wrong.

[CbroTheDude]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I disagree, his points are valid. He's purchased boats on all price points, you should learn from him.

What have you purchased that makes you the undisputed expert in judging others? You're avitar suggests that you're boatless.

Yet you are judging me on informations I chose not to disclose... (whistling)

[double u]

...I wonder if the prices on the secondhand market do not reflect "quality" up to a certain degree...

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Our Hunter 450 had a wing keel and 5.5ft draft, it sailed terribly when compared to other deeper draft boats. I can't imagin how something with less draft will sail.

If draft is a major concern, get a catamaran.

I sailed on a Hunter 45 CC, and was pleased with how well it did with a 5 foot draft. Perhaps, there was something wrong with your 450?

Another thing, people who live on a boat typically spend at least 300 days a year anchored/docked and only 60 days or less sailing. And then, most cruisers motor 80% of the time when they "sail." With this, who really cares about minute sailing characteristics?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

I sailed on a Hunter 45 CC, and was pleased with how well it did with a 5 foot draft. Perhaps, there was something wrong with your 450?

Another thing, people who live on a boat typically spend at least 300 days a year anchored/docked and only 60 days or less sailing. And then, most cruisers motor 80% of the time when they "sail." With this, who really cares about minute sailing characteristics?

Well obviously, someone with a 5ft draft wing keel on a Hunter 450 wouldn't care.

I care, Dockhead cares, polux and most of the people I know on CF seem to care, plenty of other people seem to care, which is why we purchased boats with deeper performance keels. Maybe the OP doesn't yet know the difference, so it's our duty to point it out.

Maybe.... you don't know the difference.

[Lost Horizons]

I suspect that if you were not able to leave or enter your marina because of the draft, you would think differently.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

I suspect that if you were not able to leave or enter your marina because of the draft, you would think differently.

So what does that have to do with sailing performance? Which I believe was the point raised.

A marina with 5ft draft for a 45ft boat? Like I wrote earlier, maybe it's best to purchase a catamaran in those conditions, rather than a boat which sails sideways.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by JonCharles66

Looking to buy a new 44-49 ft monohull. Have experience with pre-2008 crash manufacturers, many of which are out of business or simply no longer producing sailboats. New manufacturing is obviously more limited. Having a hard time seeing price justified difference between say Bavaria/Hanse vs. Beneteau/Jeanneau. I do understand the “excessive” price justification for a Oyster or Amel, which are more architectural works of art with tons of high interior upgrades for those with unlimited cash to blow (not me). I note the price for a new or used Hanse is half what it is for Beneteau/Jeanneau. I would appreciate any thoughts on this price disparity given limited choices for new boats. Looking for user knowledge not what a salesman is trying to push past me. Just looking for a rock-solid boat design with some nice modern touches regarding interior. My question is simply for those with new boats or knowledge, your thought on the reason for this disparity in price and any welcome recommendations.

In anticipation of the question why not used, we would consider used of recent design. I plan to retire early(ish) and live on board 24/7/365 with wife and two daughters. Would be nice to have the latest upgrades and innovations afforded by those manufacturers moving forward. Obviously, electronics being a major advancement that is ongoing. Also like the greater beam of more current designs as it relates to roominess in cabin.

On my blog that is about new boats you will find many information about those differences you talk about regarding quality and price. There is a post about the differences in built among the different mass production brands that may be of interest.

Basically, like in cars, there is not a proportional difference between quality and price but it has to be a reason for the price difference otherwise the more expensive brands would be out of business.

Better and more luxurious interiors are a substantial reason for the price difference but not only.

If you want to skip that part, I mean a more luxurious boat, and center those differences on structural quality, better built with better techniques you should center your attention in brands like Salona, Elan, Dehler, Azuree, RM or More; they cost just a bit more but it is not mostly on a better interior that the money is spent.

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

maybe it's best to purchase a catamaran in those conditions, rather than a boat which sails sideways.

Catamarans do not sail sideways?

[JonCharles66]

As the OP, enjoying the discussion. Yes, the OP does understand the advantages of a deeper performance keel, even when speaking in the third person. I would like a deeper keel and I am surprised anything in that 45-55 ft range would not have a deeper performance keel. My brother in law is a Cat lover and convert. To each their own. I simply like the aesthetics and greater sailing performance of a monohull but the Cat has its family space advantages that are undeniable and they let in tons of light/air. This is a bit like Ford vs Chevy…each will have their opinions which cannot be altered.

I respect Kenomac’s love of the Oyster 53. Great boat and I can make a used one fit within budget. However, I just read that Oyster has only produced 40 Oyster 53 boats since 1999……40. I recognize there are limited boats available. Oyster is clearly a custom boat.

@Black Diamond, you hit on one of my issues. How on earth can a company like Beneteau/Jeanneau, in business for decades, charging 450K and more for a new boat possibly have water leaks into cabinetry? Forget about mass assembly and Ikea looking cabinetry. How on earth is this even getting past R&D? If this is a manufacturing/assembly defect, then I would be even more concerned as to the assembly line quality controls. As I stated previously, this is serious business with families aboard.

I am not a Ford or Chevy guy. I have owned both. I have preferred one over the other based on certain model years. Similarly, I have no brand loyalty for boats. Just want realistic info and experiences, which I greatly appreciate everyone sharing. This info on the Beneteau/Jeanneau leaking issues is really troubling for new construction.

[LoudMusic]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I know of one boat brand that we were interested to buy and I won't mention by name except to say it's a well-known offshore brand made in Asia, which has the galley sink and food preparation area located directly beneath the companionway ladder/steps. Where is the dirtiest interior space in a boat? Correct, right beneath the companionway steps! You might as well have people walking across your food prep area all day.

So that's ... Tayana? Hylas?

What about just putting a backing (canvas or wood) on the companionway steps so that the foot fungus slides to the salon floor?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by JonCharles66

... This info on the Beneteau/Jeanneau leaking issues is really troubling for new construction.

That is not the norm. What happens certainly on that case had to do with mass production: Sometimes something goes wrong and a mistake on the line can originate a all series of mistakes. The mistake is hidden by the workers that don't want to have problems and it is patched. In the end you got what in the car Industry is called a "lemon".

The same happens with boats even if rarely. On Brands that made more than 500 boats for the same model it is expected that some few have some problems due to this.

Those of course are the ones that have more publicity on general internet forums because the owners justifiably pissed with the problem and with the general non response from the dealer/shipyard makes a lot o noise to attract attention and bad publicity to see if the problem is addressed.

If you want more accurate information about boats from a given brand go to their specific owner forums where you can get a better idea of what to expect from the boat.