New Guy, Advice Appreciated

[DangerCell]

Originally Posted by mesquaukee

Cruising where?
Isolated areas with limited local supplies or services for extended periods.
Like your toys and comfort.
etc.

The list goes on and on. The point is if you plan to be far away from easy access to supplies and enjoy your comforts and like a lot of toys you will need a larger boat. Gensets use fuel which adds up real quick over 3 or 4 months. Solar works well if you are carefull.
Then there is all the beer, wine and rum.
Spare parts, extra lines, etc.
Then there is all the food. If you like your meat freezers take up a fair bit of space.
Then there is all the gas for the outboard.
If you are in the tropics there is all the coral. You just might get hooked on diving, tanks, BC's weights, compressor and more gas.
The longer you are out the more stuff you accumulate.
More stuff means more diversions and comfort.
Don't forget that the Admiral needs to be pleased

Trailers and roof racks do not work very well.

Where? Not quite sure, which is sort of the point...one reason the cruising life trips my trigger is the freedom to go where the wind blows me, so I doubt i'll be spending too much time in any one place...running out of rum will be more than enough reason to yank the hook and move on...And I have heard some dingys actually run on paddle power too...replace the freezer with a fishing pole...and solar is a fine sub for a gen set...

Already hooked on diving though... the rest of my "toys" charge on 12 volt and fit in a backpack (camera and laptop).

I do get your point though...and is why I will go as big as I can. How big can I go? Well sort of why I started the thread...I have 50k + or - 20k and not much coming in after that...what is the ideal size/cost ratio?

Oh, the cost of a sail for a 45' makes a superb point...thanks

[Doodles]

Some good advice here regarding selecting a boat, and there's a list at the bottom of the page of good cruising boats.

Mahina Expedition - Offshore Cruising Instruction

[mesquaukee]

Will you be spending a lot of time picking your way around coral reefs? Exploring areas where charts are inaccurate? Anchoring in areas of poor holding where squalls occur?
If so mistakes can happen as they always do, you might want to think about the keel and rudder and the amount of abuse they can take.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by DangerCell

k...how much is enough?

100K (U.S.) would be my rough guess at the minimum amount required, with an income of 2k-3k per month after that. 50K for the boat, 25-30K minimum for the refit. And at that price, you will be looking at 35 footers, not 45. But that's fine.

As others have suggested, go out and price a set of new sails. Also price docklines, fenders, safety equipment, anchors, chain, charts, electronics, varnish, tools, sanding equipment, etc. Look at the cost of spare parts: replacement pumps, blocks, fasteners, etc. You'll need climbing equipment to get up the mast from time to time, or pay someone else to do it. Here in the NE, boatyards charge $75-80 per hour for labor, perhaps more for an experienced mechanic or rigger.

Then look at the cost of hauling a 40 footer and replacing zincs, doing the bottom with ablative paint, etc. You will have to do this periodically. Check out the cost of diesel and propane.

Do you want to insure the boat? What about medical insurance? Internet access? Crusing permits? Visas? It all costs money.

Then, finally, you have to eat and have some money left over for recreation.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

100K (U.S.) would be my rough guess at the minimum amount required, with an income of 2k-3k per month after that. 50K for the boat, 25-30K minimum for the refit. And at that price, you will be looking at 35 footers, not 45. But that's fine.

As others have suggested, go out and price a set of new sails. Also price docklines, fenders, safety equipment, anchors, chain, charts, electronics, varnish, tools, sanding equipment, etc. Look at the cost of spare parts: replacement pumps, blocks, fasteners, etc. You'll need climbing equipment to get up the mast from time to time, or pay someone else to do it. Here in the NE, boatyards charge $75-80 per hour for labor, perhaps more for an experienced mechanic or rigger.

Then look at the cost of hauling a 40 footer and replacing zincs, doing the bottom with ablative paint, etc. You will have to do this periodically. Check out the cost of diesel and propane.

Do you want to insure the boat? What about medical insurance? Internet access? Crusing permits? Visas? It all costs money.

Then, finally, you have to eat and have some money left over for recreation.

Ok... thats Scarey huh... almost enuf to put you off buying a boat....
But consider this also... careen your boat or tie up to drying walls to do the bottom work at low water... or carry beaching legs.... If you have to re-wire the standing rigging use Norseman fittings... watch the rigger carefully and learn... any further work can then be done by you...
Fit steps to the mast... not a hard job... all you need is a drill and rivet gun...
Are you multi semi-skilled... if so grab a shore job every so often as you go.. same for the Missus... everyone needs haircuts, sail repairs, varnish work, paint jobs etc and are willing to pay others to do them.... and a fellow boater is often preferred to the expensive boat yard... if your boat looks good, well loved and cared for you've a great advert...
You said you have scuba gear... clean boat bottoms while they're afloat... owners are always looking to cut costs and that's a sure fire hit when you consider liftout costs...
Remember for every possible expense there's a possible income...
Is your cup half full..... or half empty...
Nothing wrong with older cheaper boats.... and remember people here are cutting cloaks to fit THEIR cloth.... not yours..

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Ok... thats Scarey huh... almost enuf to put you off buying a boat....
But consider this also... careen your boat or tie up to drying walls to do the bottom work at low water... or carry beaching legs.... If you have to re-wire the standing rigging use Norseman fittings... watch the rigger carefully and learn... any further work can then be done by you...
Fit steps to the mast... not a hard job... all you need is a drill and rivet gun...
Are you multi semi-skilled... if so grab a shore job every so often as you go.. same for the Missus... everyone needs haircuts, sail repairs, varnish work, paint jobs etc and are willing to pay others to do them.... and a fellow boater is often preferred to the expensive boat yard... if your boat looks good, well loved and cared for you've a great advert...
You said you have scuba gear... clean boat bottoms while they're afloat... owners are always looking to cut costs and that's a sure fire hit when you consider liftout costs...
Remember for every possible expense there's a possible income...
Is your cup half full..... or half empty...
Nothing wrong with older cheaper boats.... and remember people here are cutting cloaks to fit THEIR cloth.... not yours..

Excellent! And well said. My wife gives haircuts and sews, and has all the work she wants. I do income taxes. We are currently at a small rural marina on the lower Chesapeake and here almost everyone does there own boat work. If you don't know how to do it there is always someone else who does and is willing to help or show you how.

[captain58sailin]

All really good input.
A vessel is the extension of your will and life style. You can high brow or low brow depending on your comfort zone. I have known a lot of cruisers that get by on very little, and they seem like the most versatile and they have a lot of cool adventures. On the other end of the spectrum there are those who have to have internet and all the amenities of home, and their cost of living is quite high, kind of like when they are on the beach. The vessel I command for hire recently went into the drydock in Nigeria and it cost $2825.00 USD per day to sit on the blocks, work was extra, of course it was a 220' work boat. In Alaska the tides are such that you can find a correctly sloped beach and let your vessel go dry and repaint the bottom in two tides. (Yes I have personally done this and it works.) I once met a Master unlimited who was sailing with his family down the west coast aboard a home built catamaran that he and his wife had constructed on the beach in B.C. Canada and they were sailing everywhere we were at a much lower cost. It really depends on what you are happy with, and that takes some introspection about your motives etc... a lot of people spend most of their time not looking inward and they end up buying all kinds of distractions so they don't have to look at who they really are. As for me I am more utility minded. I can be happy with a warm dry bunk and good coffee, and an unsolved Sudoku, anchored up in a cove where no one else is around, I prefer it that way. I have hydraulics, & a freezer hold for commercial purposes, it alleviates the need to get a real job ashore, or at least it will when I get her paid off. When I was in the hunt for (my ideal live aboard for the rest of my life vessel.) I found an partially completed 42' fiberglass full keel sailing vessel in Nanaimo, Canada, before going there, I had never heard of the place, and I was just driving around looking for that one perfect boat, and there it was in a Ladie's back yard, it had all the hardware to get her wet, and the engine was already bedded. Her husband had died leaving it partially completed, but all the stuff was there and it was mine for $20,000 Canadian, and she was going to allow me 6 months on the property to get her ready for the water. I could not take the deal, for financial reasons, I had the money for the purchase, but not the completion and going back to work to earn enough money to make it fly would have taken longer than the six months, and this Lady was hurting big time about her husband and I did not want to cause her any additional distress. If I would have had the financial chops, I could have moved the whole thing down to a local yard and finished her up there. This would have been a brand new vessel fitted up the way I would have been happy with for a good bit less than the factory boats that get put out like cookies on plate, at that time I just couldn't make it fly. It is a wonderful adventure finding that one right boat for you. I wish you the best of luck, don't let lack of experience give you cause for pause, and don't listen to everyone who offers advice (especially me!). Think about the kind of environment that makes you truly happy, and search there. Make, model, & serial # are problematical. In my mind a 45' well laid out vessel is about perfect for a cruising couple for long term live aboard, that's for me, for you a 32' Cape Dory may be plenty. Know yourself and your boat will find you.

[mesquaukee]

Originally Posted by DangerCell

Where? Not quite sure, which is sort of the point...one reason the cruising life trips my trigger is the freedom to go where the wind blows me, so I doubt i'll be spending too much time in any one place...running out of rum will be more than enough reason to yank the hook and move on...And I have heard some dingys actually run on paddle power too...replace the freezer with a fishing pole...and solar is a fine sub for a gen set...

Already hooked on diving though... the rest of my "toys" charge on 12 volt and fit in a backpack (camera and laptop).

I do get your point though...and is why I will go as big as I can. How big can I go? Well sort of why I started the thread...I have 50k + or - 20k and not much coming in after that...what is the ideal size/cost ratio?

Oh, the cost of a sail for a 45' makes a superb point...thanks

If you can live out of a backpack and know how to improvise but like diving there is no need to go bigger than 40 ft, maybe even 36 ft.
Do you want to cruise or have everything looking perfect?
The biggest expense is the engine, repowering or rebuilding is expensive and time consuming. Do an oil analysis, go over it, open up the heat exchangers, get a good mechanic. This is the deal breaker and budget breaker
Sails ordered from the orient are inexpensive and good for cruising, you are not racing.
Standing rigging if you are handy is not that expensive, all you need is a tension gauge and some advise from a fellow cruiser.
Bottom paint, layer it on 3-5 coats, 7 or more along the waterline area down about 2 ft, you will be good for 3-4 years.
If you are creative, know how to improvise and enjoy living simply the cruising costs are not that high. The more complex the systems the higher the maintenance costs and potential aggravation.
There are a number of cruisers out there living comfortably on less than $1000/ month. Depends where you are.
A 50K budget puts you into a smaller boat with simple systems. A lot of cruisers use simple handheld GPS. Learn navigation. There is no need for wind indicators, interconnected nav systems, chartplotters, etc.
An SSB is good to have, there is always a used one to be had somewhere.

Keep it Simple.

[rover88]

Everyone's needs differ, but I think a good rule of thumb is not to buy the biggest boat you can afford, but rather the smallest boat you can be reasonably comfortable aboard.

After 35' expenses, difficulty handling and many other factors make larger boat owners often cast a longing eye towards their 30' - 35' neighbor's boat.

I have also noted that the larger boats tend to stay in the marina far more than the smaller boats. We can have our 34' ready to sail within a half hour, whereas our friends with larger boats require nearly a day to get ready to cast off.

The downside of course is lack storage space and comfort on smaller boats. However, I believe that when it comes to space, we are all like goldfish and will grow as large as our envirionment allows. We do not have the "stuff" many of our firend with larger boats have, but when it comes to remaining usable living space we are generally equal.

[DangerCell]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Ok... thats Scarey huh... almost enuf to put you off buying a boat....
But consider this also... careen your boat or tie up to drying walls to do the bottom work at low water... or carry beaching legs.... If you have to re-wire the standing rigging use Norseman fittings... watch the rigger carefully and learn... any further work can then be done by you...
Fit steps to the mast... not a hard job... all you need is a drill and rivet gun...
Are you multi semi-skilled... if so grab a shore job every so often as you go.. same for the Missus... everyone needs haircuts, sail repairs, varnish work, paint jobs etc and are willing to pay others to do them.... and a fellow boater is often preferred to the expensive boat yard... if your boat looks good, well loved and cared for you've a great advert...
You said you have scuba gear... clean boat bottoms while they're afloat... owners are always looking to cut costs and that's a sure fire hit when you consider liftout costs...
Remember for every possible expense there's a possible income...
Is your cup half full..... or half empty...
Nothing wrong with older cheaper boats.... and remember people here are cutting cloaks to fit THEIR cloth.... not yours..

Aaaaah now we are talkin! Somehow I see myself buying you a beer in the not too distant future!

Actually what Crumudgeon lays out is not scary...I think it realistically represents the "regular people" high end of the low end (for a 35ish boat) and it was what I asked for. It is a nice reminder of reality. Thanks

And what you are realistically reminding me of, is that that I am not "regular people"! When you insert my skill set (very multi semi) into the equation the numbers begin getting less scary fast...have scraped/scrubbed bottoms for beer money after work quite a few times ...and cut lobster pot lines off props, untangled rode and moorings after a blow, and retrieved various heavier than water items (from jewelry to anchors to outboards) from the bottom...if we work on the missus' skill set a bit (if she cut someones hair at this point we would get lynched) I think we could do pretty well...it is comforting to know there is a demand for "elbow grease"...and i am not afraid of investing some "sweat equity" at he outset....and if it comes to a shore job my resume is extensive...done it all (well i might add) from biology teacher, rv salesman, scientific diver, truck driver, nail banger, to fish trainer (not a typo)...

Good info comin here!

Doodles that web page is VERY informative...not sure i would ever have found that one, TY

captain58, thanks man...good stuff.

keep it comin!

Now if I could just get the bulletproof-ness of a cape dory with the layout of those westerlys for the price of a columbia I could start tapping you guys for info on less daunting subjects like heads and anchoring techniques

[Bash]

Originally Posted by DangerCell

Now if I could just get the bulletproof-ness of a cape dory with the layout of those westerlys for the price of a columbia I could start tapping you guys for info on less daunting subjects like heads and anchoring techniques

Why didn't you say so in the first place? You're looking for a Cal 36. (Or, if you come into money, a 39 or 40.)

[daddle]

Want an eye opener? Fly to where you want to go. Say Fiji. Walk the docks. Meet all the people having fun on very basic boats. Your priorites may change. You'll see that much of this armchair advice is off the mark. It may change your view. Flights are cheap compared to boats.

[rover88]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

100K (U.S.) would be my rough guess at the minimum amount required, with an income of 2k-3k per month after that. 50K for the boat, 25-30K minimum for the refit. And at that price, you will be looking at 35 footers, not 45. But that's fine.

As others have suggested, go out and price a set of new sails. Also price docklines, fenders, safety equipment, anchors, chain, charts, electronics, varnish, tools, sanding equipment, etc. Look at the cost of spare parts: replacement pumps, blocks, fasteners, etc. You'll need climbing equipment to get up the mast from time to time, or pay someone else to do it. Here in the NE, boatyards charge $75-80 per hour for labor, perhaps more for an experienced mechanic or rigger.

Then look at the cost of hauling a 40 footer and replacing zincs, doing the bottom with ablative paint, etc. You will have to do this periodically. Check out the cost of diesel and propane.

Do you want to insure the boat? What about medical insurance? Internet access? Crusing permits? Visas? It all costs money.

Then, finally, you have to eat and have some money left over for recreation.

Curmudgeon, your math is pretty pessimistic, but you bring out one point in that it will always cost more than you anticipate or budget.

However, to do a refit you don't need all the geewhiz gadgets the glossy magazines insist you have. If you are prepared to learn, get dirty and swap skills with others, seldom will you have to pay labor fees. Then what on earth could you eat that would cost you $1,000 a month - except in a restaurant every night? Boat insurance? Buy liability and self insure the rest. Medivac insurance? Only if you have a pre extisting serious medical condition that could not be treated in a foreign country. Cruise the Bahamas for $150 per six months if you are under 35'. A bargain by any standards.

Honestly, if it costs as much as you declare, then most of us would be staying at home building model boats.

[mesquaukee]

Originally Posted by DangerCell

And what you are realistically reminding me of, is that that I am not "regular people"! When you insert my skill set (very multi semi) into the equation the numbers begin getting less scary fast...have scraped/scrubbed bottoms for beer money after work quite a few times ...and cut lobster pot lines off props, untangled rode and moorings after a blow, and retrieved various heavier than water items (from jewelry to anchors to outboards) from the bottom...if we work on the missus' skill set a bit (if she cut someones hair at this point we would get lynched) I think we could do pretty well...it is comforting to know there is a demand for "elbow grease"...and i am not afraid of investing some "sweat equity" at he outset....and if it comes to a shore job my resume is extensive...done it all (well i might add) from biology teacher, rv salesman, scientific diver, truck driver, nail banger, to fish trainer (not a typo)...

You will do just fine. You have a better skill set then most anyone else out there. The more you can do the more you see.

I and others have worked in dive shops, taught in schools, construction (resort projects), repaired equipment, replaced rigging, hauled coconuts and plantain,....

Elbow grease and a desire to get involved opens a lot of doors.

Repairing sewing machines and being the dumb gringo willing to haul stuff out of the woods and presenting a few portrait pictures of the tribal council in Ustupu, San Blass led to my being involved in their revolution ceremonies.
I encouraged a number of boats to come and play live music (boat batteries and invertors) which the Kunas reacted to as if they were the Rolling Stones. This led to my meeting and drinking far too much sugar cane beer with the entire leadership of the Kuna Nation in Panama. The drink was forced upon us by ferociously painted women who were insulted if we did not toast their ancestors. After seeing their ancestors I woke up a few days later to find out the Kuna piano player had drowned and the family wanted a protrait of him in his coffin which I took in a smoke filled darkened hut with wailing women. After retouching a leaking nostril and printing the pic I was hijacked by the dugout canoe builder to repair his saw....
Eventually I escaped.

3 month adventure, total cost under $1000 (300/month), including food, beer, gas, depreciation, maintenance,..

What I received: The right to anchor without charge and all the freah water I can use for life.
A lot of dings in the hull from all the dugout canoes.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by rover88

Curmudgeon, your math is pretty pessimistic, but you bring out one point in that it will always cost more than you anticipate or budget.

However, to do a refit you don't need all the geewhiz gadgets the glossy magazines insist you have. If you are prepared to learn, get dirty and swap skills with others, seldom will you have to pay labor fees. Then what on earth could you eat that would cost you $1,000 a month - except in a restaurant every night? Boat insurance? Buy liability and self insure the rest. Medivac insurance? Only if you have a pre extisting serious medical condition that could not be treated in a foreign country. Cruise the Bahamas for $150 per six months if you are under 35'. A bargain by any standards.

Honestly, if it costs as much as you declare, then most of us would be staying at home building model boats.

Just go out and price the things you may need. Proceed accordingly. And even if you do most of the work yourself, you still have to buy the paint, varnish, sandpaper, replacement parts, tools etc. that you will need to do the job.

Even those who plan to live a very modest cruising lifestyle tend to underestimate the costs. And there is always the unexpected.