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Old 20-07-2017, 01:16   #1
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New boat vs Used boat

Hiya All!!

Struggling to decide between a new boat or a used boat for cruising around the world. I have been told that new boats have less maintenance cost but then i have also heard they have more problems in the first years.

Budget is up to £275,000 all in. And we are looking for something around the 45ft range. Any advice and tips would be highly appreciate.
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Old 20-07-2017, 02:17   #2
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Re: New boat vs Used boat

As a general comment... a used boat has lost a lot of value... depreciation... not unlike a car... so in theory you can get more value from a used purchase.

But you have to factor in the condition... and it's systems

and of course.... the previous owners' modifications and improvements... which also depreciate. Depreciation aside... do you LIKE the previous owners' choices? For example suppose they installed a suite of Ray Marine electronics 12 years ago... in working order now... Is that something you want or do you need to remove it (all) and upgrade? You are faced with all manner of holes cut into the boat where the Ray Marine instruments are mounted. The boat may or may not have an instruments pod at the helm... Do you want or not want this?

A knowledgeable sailor has very specific ideas about what works for him or her in a boat and so they might discover a used boat which has been tricked out perfectly to their liking... or the reverse or more likely somewhat in between. And the it becomes a matter of making it right for YOU and that's time and money. The good thing is when "redoing" boat systems... you are forced to learn them intimately. And that's important.

I bought Shiva new and assumed the diesel would be fine for X number of years and then inevitably it would require mechanical work... I know nothing about diesels and so the thought of being out there somewhere facing a diesel engine repair project was intimidating. My routine engine maintenance allowed me to ease myself into diesel mechanics/maintenance and repair. Some operations I can't do because of lack of specialized tools and knowledge... others I could. WWW is your friend and since diesel repair is not rocket science requiring a PhD you can learn to do it. The alternative is pay VERY expensive mechanics... if you can find them. This sort of calculus applies to every boat system... rigging, plumbing, electrics, navigation instruments, refrigeration... heating... and so on.

Whatever you buy, whatever condition it is in.... expect that at some point you will have to do major repairs, work, changes, upgrades. That's owning a boat.
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Old 20-07-2017, 02:33   #3
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Re: New boat vs Used boat

My advice is to either buy new, or buy an older boat that someone has just poured a ton of money into.

Do NOT do what I did -- buy used, recently made, and apparently in wonderful condition.

Let me explain why:

A boat, as is sometimes said about helicopters, is a large collection of different systems loosely tied together by the hull, which is a relatively small percentage of the whole thing in terms of value. Those systems all have different useful lives which are clicking down every year, to some extent by time and to some extent by hours or miles of usage.

My boat was 8 years old when I bought her, and was very lightly used and very well taken care of. Only 830 hours on the main engine, only 160 hours on the generator. She surveyed well and seemed to be ready for years of hard usage.

Wrong! Almost from the first day, system after system started failing -- never forget that useful life is determined, in most cases, as much, or even more, by TIME, not miles! So I started pouring money into her, and within a few years, I had spent more than a new boat of her class would have cost, and with a lot more trouble.

So when you buy a new boat, you are buying a large collection of brand new systems -- zero time, zero miles -- that's GOOD. It does not indeed mean you don't have to repair or maintain anything -- it's a BOAT after all . But you are repairing and maintaining zero time systems, which is a totally different ball game. You might even have a warranty!

So contrary to what some people say, it's not at all like a car. Modern cars are more or less trouble free for 100,000 miles or 10 years, whatever comes first. Call that the useful life, with some residual value after that. When you buy a used one, you are buying the last however many years of the useful life, and according to the depreciation schedules of cars, the last years are cheaper, sometimes much cheaper, so it's a good deal. And the last years are still likely to be as trouble free as the first ones were, or nearly so (unless you buy a Range Rover like I did last time ). The guy who bought the car new paid a premium for the new car smell the first few years; you get a discount for giving that up, and likely without any significant investment in repairs. Boats are TOTALLY different from that, because they are not at all trouble free, not ever, not for any period of time -- every system is a ticking time bomb of depreciation. They don't depreciate in price nearly enough to justify it.

So in my opinion, new boats are a very good proposition financially, and also in terms of how your spend your boating time. The only better proposition is to buy an older boat from someone who loved his boat so much that he never skimped on anything, and poured money into it, money which is never reflected in the price. Buying that boat, you get the benefit of all that investment. Just don't think that it will stop there

It shouldn't be 8 years old, like my boat was -- because that is within the useful life of most of the original systems, but already getting towards the end of all of them -- even if it doesn't look like that. Better 10 or 15 years old with most systems replaced already.
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Old 20-07-2017, 04:04   #4
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Re: New boat vs Used boat

Find a boat that someone has spent a great deal of time and money prepping for a serious voyage and then lost the dream. Your budget will buy an OK new boat, but a fabulous used boat - and leave you with money for your cruising budget.
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Old 20-07-2017, 04:39   #5
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Re: New boat vs Used boat

Great explanation Dockhead.
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Old 20-07-2017, 04:58   #6
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Re: New boat vs Used boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
My advice is to either buy new, or buy an older boat that someone has just poured a ton of money into.

Do NOT do what I did -- buy used, recently made, and apparently in wonderful condition.

Let me explain why:

A boat, as is sometimes said about helicopters, is a large collection of different systems loosely tied together by the hull, which is a relatively small percentage of the whole thing in terms of value. Those systems all have different useful lives which are clicking down every year, to some extent by time and to some extent by hours or miles of usage.

My boat was 8 years old when I bought her, and was very lightly used and very well taken care of. Only 830 hours on the main engine, only 160 hours on the generator. She surveyed well and seemed to be ready for years of hard usage.

Wrong! Almost from the first day, system after system started failing -- never forget that useful life is determined, in most cases, as much, or even more, by TIME, not miles! So I started pouring money into her, and within a few years, I had spent more than a new boat of her class would have cost, and with a lot more trouble.

So when you buy a new boat, you are buying a large collection of brand new systems -- zero time, zero miles -- that's GOOD. It does not indeed mean you don't have to repair or maintain anything -- it's a BOAT after all . But you are repairing and maintaining zero time systems, which is a totally different ball game. You might even have a warranty!

So contrary to what some people say, it's not at all like a car. Modern cars are more or less trouble free for 100,000 miles or 10 years, whatever comes first. Call that the useful life, with some residual value after that. When you buy a used one, you are buying the last however many years of the useful life, and according to the depreciation schedules of cars, the last years are cheaper, sometimes much cheaper, so it's a good deal. And the last years are still likely to be as trouble free as the first ones were, or nearly so (unless you buy a Range Rover like I did last time ). The guy who bought the car new paid a premium for the new car smell the first few years; you get a discount for giving that up, and likely without any significant investment in repairs. Boats are TOTALLY different from that, because they are not at all trouble free, not ever, not for any period of time -- every system is a ticking time bomb of depreciation. They don't depreciate in price nearly enough to justify it.

So in my opinion, new boats are a very good proposition financially, and also in terms of how your spend your boating time. The only better proposition is to buy an older boat from someone who loved his boat so much that he never skimped on anything, and poured money into it, money which is never reflected in the price. Buying that boat, you get the benefit of all that investment. Just don't think that it will stop there

It shouldn't be 8 years old, like my boat was -- because that is within the useful life of most of the original systems, but already getting towards the end of all of them -- even if it doesn't look like that. Better 10 or 15 years old with most systems replaced already.
This is excellent.... but one needs to spend a lot in turning a factory new boat into a ocean going passage maker. That's not REPAIR... it's upgrades... and you may get a lot of them albeit with time on them... with a used boat.

I think there is ENORMOUS value in the owner doing the systems upgrades... whether new or used boat. With a used boat you are often facing the problem in dealing what the last owner has done. Take an AP for example... expensive kit and there are different AP types... or radar... and so on...

I started new and am pleased with how that worked out.
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Old 20-07-2017, 05:01   #7
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Re: New boat vs Used boat

Agreed Dockhead. Well put.

We are proponents of buying a much loved, well maintained older boat, and have been very successful with that.

Another aspect of the old vs new boats are the designs. Not only the hull shapes and rigging, but also the conveniences of the newer boats vs. the strength and quality of build of the older boats. When I look at the newer production boats, I cringe at the lack of quality and wood.
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Old 20-07-2017, 06:07   #8
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Re: New boat vs Used boat

From a financial standpoint buying a used boat with all new equipment would be the holy grail. Problem is finding one. If you look at what is available for sale you will find some nice high quality used boats with SOME improvements but that still require a huge amount of time, money, and equipment to make them comparable to a new boat. I went through this when I purchased my current boat. I decided to buy a well built pedigree boat and do a complete refit to achieve my ideal cruising/liveaboard vessel. This has been a HUGE and COSTLY undertaking, which is another reason you do not see boats in this condition for sale. I gutted my boat and refit every system onboard with the highest quality equipment available regardless of expense. All new plumbing, wiring, panels, air conditioning, batteries, generator, battery charger, electronics,watermaker,re-paint entire boat, and on and on. I also modernized the entire boat to make the interior similar to a newer boat so I refit the galley in stainless steel and Corian with all new appliances, added a new larger fridge and two freezers.
I gutted both heads and rebuilt one with Corian, above counter sink, electric fresh water head, and turned the other into a custom shower stall with bench, and cabinet for the watermaker.
I also added a lot of equipment that I deemed necessary (others maybe not) like sat tv dome, washer dryer, custom pantry, icemaker, and a lot of custom storage. In the end I now have a beautiful classic hull that is very well built with a custom modern interior and all new equipment.
I am getting ready to put my boat up for sale to buy something bigger and I will find out if there is a market for what I have built. I have checked the for sale boats out there and there is nothing like my boat for sale for under $500,000 so I'll find out what people are willing to pay for the holy grail. I have a feeling I will lose a lot of money when all is said and done. But I got exactly what I wanted and was willing to pay for the privilege. Time to move on.
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Old 20-07-2017, 06:37   #9
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Re: New boat vs Used boat

My input is...
I purchased a 45ft long 1969 ocean racing boat, purpose built for the Admirals cup.
Cold molded mahogany. I stripped the hull back to bare mahogany and replaced some soft spots and renewed all the skin fittings and redone the hull to as new condition.
Ripped the Old perkins out and installed a brand new Nanni 50HP.
New Mast and Rigging and then new sails and then new winches.
Then the electrics are renewed but not completely done.
The boat is a brand new boat on a classic design by an Angus Primrose the guy who designed Moodys. She is lovely and handles brilliant in rough sea with weather. A quality built strong boat. I could of bought a new beneteau for what i have spent but everything ive added has been the best addition. The whinches were Andersen, The sails were woven Dynema, The mast was Formula marine etc. If id specced all that on a Beneteau it would of been double the price. The only downfall is i dont have lovely laminated internals with TV screens popping up out of the cabinets and electric toilets. But i do have a 50 year old boat thats brand new and i am 20% into a circumnavigation and i know nothing will go wrong with the boat.. (Hopefully). Older boats are stronger and built with more quality. I found this out when looking to replace the old mast which when fabricated was not designed on CAD but rather just built strong. The new masts for Selden are cutting wall thickness in some areas and adding support in stress related areas etc. This is alright as long as everything is done by the book.. My new mast does not feel as solid as my last mast. Although they gaurantee it is..
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Old 20-07-2017, 07:03   #10
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Re: New boat vs Used boat

While i generally agree with Dockhead, this time I think he is wrong. When you buy a new boat you pay new prices for everything, new mast, new engine, new water tanks, new electronics...

We prefer to buy boats in the six to eight year old range then throw away the stuff that ages poorly. Just like on a new boat we buy new sails, electronics, have new wires run (not all, just the new electronics), and of course outfitting costs. But you get a used mast, used engine, and a used hull.

Outfitting a new boat is incredibly expensive, not just in the factory options, but also in the little things, like sheets, silverware, docklines, a decent anchor, sails... the list goes on and one. It really is possible to spend a major chunk of the new purchase price on a three month old boat getting her ready for the first weekend cruise.

Old boats aren't a bad option either, but they tend to need much more extensive overhauls of the major systems. With a new engine and transmission being high on the list of expensive items that need replacing.
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Old 20-07-2017, 07:10   #11
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Re: New boat vs Used boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
This is excellent.... but one needs to spend a lot in turning a factory new boat into a ocean going passage maker. That's not REPAIR... it's upgrades... and you may get a lot of them albeit with time on them... with a used boat.

I think there is ENORMOUS value in the owner doing the systems upgrades... whether new or used boat. With a used boat you are often facing the problem in dealing what the last owner has done. Take an AP for example... expensive kit and there are different AP types... or radar... and so on...

I started new and am pleased with how that worked out.
Yes, that's a good point, which I forgot to include.

Namely -- the list price of a new boat is deceiving -- it's not the cost to sail off on a circumnavigation. You will spend a ton of money on a new boat getting it equipped for long term or long distance cruising.

And yes -- this CAN be an economic rationale for a slightly used boat. But the price had better be right -- count ruthlessly the depreciation of all the systems, when you try to calculate what is a good price. I do not often see really good deals on slightly used boats.
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Old 20-07-2017, 07:37   #12
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Re: New boat vs Used boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
While i generally agree with Dockhead, this time I think he is wrong. When you buy a new boat you pay new prices for everything, new mast, new engine, new water tanks, new electronics...

We prefer to buy boats in the six to eight year old range then throw away the stuff that ages poorly. Just like on a new boat we buy new sails, electronics, have new wires run (not all, just the new electronics), and of course outfitting costs. But you get a used mast, used engine, and a used hull. . . .
It depends on the price, of course, but for the kind of boats I looked at buying from time to time, there were never any good deals in the six to eight year old range, considering the real value of the half- or three-quarter worn out systems. In my experience -- YMMV.

At 8 years old -- the age of my boat when I bought her -- you're getting close to standing rigging, maybe tanks if they were not all that good, pumps, plumbing, teak decks ($$$) are one-third to one-half way through their useful lives, stern gear will be about due some investment, sea cocks, main engine and genset may well be halfway to a repower/replacement or overhaul, time for sails and running rigging, complete electronics replacement, canvas, possibly upholstery, pumps will start croaking, unserviced life rafts will be ready for the trash, calorifiers will start leaking, refrigeration and air conditioning might be getting tired -- it goes on and on and on and on.

I suggest that's just not a good age unless there is a really heavy discount from new -- I would say it should be about half price considering the value of the equipment which comes with the boat (which should also be half price).

I just haven't seen such deals on high end cruising boats, which if they look really good and sail, normally go for maybe 20% or 30% under the whole cost of buying and equipping them, which is just not attractive in my opinion.

The exception is something like Oysters -- a market of their own. They depreciate more and can be bought cheaply at that age. But they are invariably used very hard and invariably not maintained. All the ones I looked at were ready for major refit, and even 50% off new was not a good deal.

In hindsight, the boat I probably should have bought (from an economic point of view) when I was shopping 8 years ago, was a 1990 Oyster 55 ketch, named "Delf". It had the ugly old dark interior -- probably main reason why it was so cheap -- much less attractive than the later, gorgeous Andrew Winch designed interiors. But it had been totally refit, and I mean totally, including brand new total machinery (new Yanmar 6 cylinder main engine, new stern gear and Max Prop, new generator), total new Furuno electronics with no expense spared, even a satellite compass, huge suit of new laminate sails including mizzen staysails, assy, etc., gray water tank added, all new plumbing and wiring, all new standing and running rigging, dual carbon poles, carbon sprit, new decks . .. and the list went on and on. It was a lovely boat. Lacked powered winches or bow thruster, but it only cost 200,000 pounds (about $320k in those days), which I guess is right about what the owner had spent on her in the previous few years. I still kick myself from time to time for not buying that boat. I made a lowball offer on her, which was not accepted, and then I didn't follow up. I've got roughly triple that figure in my present boat, which is a better boat in many respects, much faster for example, but not worth triple the price!
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Old 20-07-2017, 08:12   #13
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Re: New boat vs Used boat

If I could buy a new vs. used boat of the same quality, I would buy new.

The new vs. old is nearly always a budget matter. Look at your budget, look at your boat preferences and you have your answer.

250k pounds buys you a fine 30+ footer that can take you around the world.

If you want 45' it is a s/h one.

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Old 20-07-2017, 09:03   #14
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Re: New boat vs Used boat

Buy a used boat and take your time finding it. With your budget you can get a great boat and still have a lot spare to upgrade.
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Old 20-07-2017, 10:10   #15
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Re: New boat vs Used boat

When I read Dockhead's first reply, I was about to make a list of systems that could deteriorate so much in 8 years that they would be problematic. His followup post does just that!!!

As anything related to boats, it's a personal decision. We bought a then 12 year old boat in 1998 that is now 30 years old and still ours. We have replaced: water heater (was new by PO when purchased but they have a life of 12-16 years), standing rigging and furler. That's it. There have been upgrade items: new I/C and battery monitor, new electronic module for fridge, upgraded alternator with output run to house bank and combiner. The rest has been maintenance, like new engine and exhaust hoses, a new muffler, fluid and filter changes. Even these newer boats half my age are beginning to have to do those chores.

I was recently at two Catalina Rendezvous, comparing my old boat with newer models of the same one. I don't have fancy running gear, a walk through transom, in-mast furling, windlass, AIS, radar, heating system or full canvas enclosure. Some of those were add-ons by owners anyway from even newer stock boats, some were extra cost "standards" for cruising here (heat, enclosures).

Admittedly, these are all coastal cruisers. But it should compare to bigger cruising, too.

But systems that have continued to work for me include my domestic water pump, although I have replaced all the hoses. My upholstery is fine although two cushions could use new foam. My engine has 3200 hours, 165 put on in bringing her north last year.

Point being, is that it would make sense for you to list ALL of these and closely examine them on whatever you choose to purchase. We did.

At the time of purchase, my boat, in excellent condition with a meticulous PO, was HALF THE PRICE of a new stock boat. We couldn't justify the difference in price at the time.

Your boat, your choice.

Good luck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

At 8 years old -- the age of my boat when I bought her -- you're getting close to standing rigging, maybe tanks if they were not all that good, pumps, plumbing, teak decks ($$$) are one-third to one-half way through their useful lives, stern gear will be about due some investment, sea cocks, main engine and genset may well be halfway to a repower/replacement or overhaul, time for sails and running rigging, complete electronics replacement, canvas, possibly upholstery, pumps will start croaking, unserviced life rafts will be ready for the trash, calorifiers will start leaking, refrigeration and air conditioning might be getting tired -- it goes on and on and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gorgeous Andrew Winch designed interiors. But it had been totally refit, and I mean totally, including brand new total machinery (new Yanmar 6 cylinder main engine, new stern gear and Max Prop, new generator), total new Furuno electronics with no expense spared, even a satellite compass, huge suit of new laminate sails including mizzen staysails, assy, etc., gray water tank added, all new plumbing and wiring, all new standing and running rigging, dual carbon poles, carbon sprit, new decks . .. and the list went on and on. It was a lovely boat. Lacked powered winches or bow thruster, but it only cost 200,000 pounds (about $320k in those days), which I guess is right about what the owner had spent on her in the previous few years.>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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