Nelson-Marek 454 input

[rmesfo]

Hi All,

I am looking at the Morgan/Nelson-Marek 454 in Alameda, Ca. The Morgan is in great shape and has been well cared for but there are, as always,
a few issues and I would like folks to weigh in, especially Morgan 454 owners.

1983 Morgan 454 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

The owners took out one 50 gallon gas tank and one 50 gallon water tank for extra storage and the boat needs an electric windlass. I can replace the tanks to original and install a windlass for 4K to 5K.

These are my concerns:

Standing rigging (Rod) and sails are original. Any ball park estimates or replacing rigging and sails? I am thinking of just having a rigging survey and estimate.

The Universal is only 32 HP but has been serviced regularly. Most Morgan's have 44 to 50 HP engines and I wondering if 32 is enough.

The draft is 7 ft 11 inches which limits it's use in some areas.

I appreciate all the input.

Mark

[Flyingriki]

I looked at this one last week. Very solid boat. Much better prices in FL!

1983 Morgan NELSON MAREK 454 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I call riggers and sail makers for rough quotes on the items you require. Has helped me a lot in comparing and contrasting various boats I'm looking at. Good luck!

[Cheechako]

The smaller N-M's seem to go pretty inexpensive, probably due to them being a light racing boat. Cored hull? That's a lot of draft.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Replacing rod tends to be majorly expensive. Both for the materials, & in that much/most of the work needs to be done by professionals. Since everything must be measured super precisely, including getting the bends at the spreaders in precisely the correct place, & bent to +/- 1 or 2 degrees. Along with all of the cold heading done with special tooling. Specialized end terminals, & sometimes spreader hardware, etc. Plus just the rod by itself is expensive.

On some boats it's not too hard to convert from rod to 1x19 wire, dyeform/compacted strand, or Dux (synthetic rigging). But check first, including listing & tallying all of the needed parts from chainplates to masthead on all shrouds & stays. And with such conversions it's not uncommon to need different tangs.

As a rough guide for a boat that size, if you're refurbishing/replacing all of the standing rigging, & tuning up the spar in general, plan on $15k. Assuming there are no big surprises. And if there are, money can start leaving your wallet in increments of $5k

For sails on something like that, definitely get quotes. But before you do, make a standardized list of features that you want for each sail, so that you'll be comparing apples to apples. Since adding features, especially ones which require a lot of hand work, add cost to the sail quite quickly. Though they're also things that tend to aid a sail's longevity quickly.

That said, for a main, or a RF jib, figure on $5k - $10k each, depending on cloth/fabric type, & features. And know that for sails of that size, unless you work with a premium, expert sailmaker, it's really, really tough to get decent service life out of conventional woven Dacron (polyester) fabrics. As the loads on the cloth tend to be quite high, thus stretching them rapidly, leading to an early demise.
Quite often you're better served by going to Spectra, or a similar performance fabric; Technora, Carbon, etc. Laminates basically. Or Hydranet, or a variant of something similar.

Pick up the book The Sailmaker's Apprentice in order to better get an idea of what goes into sail construction. Especailly regarding handwork, & key details/features. Ditto Brion Toss's The Rigger's Apprentice so as to better understand what goes into building a rig. At least the basics of such. And with a bit of searching you can find Brian Hancock's book Maximum Sail Power in PDF online, gratis. It too is worth a read.


PS: There are loads of good tips on the various sail cloths, & cuts of sails here on CF thanks to the good number of sailmakers who are members here.

[fishead]

All of these that I've seen are keel centerboards and draw about 5' with the board up. The engine is to small, should be up around 45+HP.

[Jim Cate]

Looks like a nice conversion of a retired race boat. Some things to look at:

Careful survey of below the waterline hull, looking for signs of any water intrusion. If the conversion included adding any through hulls, special attention in those areas.

Have a good look at the wiring. It is likely much more complex than original, and could be problematic. Look behnd the switch panel and in the engine room.

Check for access to important parts of the engine. Front access looks fine,but what about the rest of it? It is on the small size, too. Kinda typical of race boats that only motored to the start line! See if there is room for a larger engine. And only 450 hours on a thirty year old engine raises some flags for me. When an engine is used very seldom, sometimes routine maintenance is poorly done.

As to the rig, I would very likely switch to Dyform or Compact strand wire and forget the rod. Only slightly less stretch, much less expensive, easier to maintain if you go cruising to distant shores. Downside is slightly more weight aloft and more windage, but not likely to be even noticeable in a cruising situation.

Nothing much is said about batteries. Is there room for a decent house bank? And how about room or place for some solar panel?

And while it isn't important, I've never seen a boat where the primary winches (genoa sheet) are smaller than the secondaries (spinnaker handling). Wonder how that happened?

It goes without saying that a careful survey of the whole boat is critical. Don't know if she was seriously raced, but if so, there is always the risk of over stressing somewhere along the way.

It should be a fun boat to sail, and that's important to me. Note that we cruised for 17 years in an early IOR one tonner that had been somewhat cruiserfied. This boat looks more homey to me than Insatiable the first did.

Keep us informed of any progress on the purchase.

Jim

[rmesfo]

I want to thank all of you who responded to my post. That is why this site is so great and helpful to everyone. I am still waffling and will take a really close look this Thursday. I am geting some rough estimates on replacing the rigging and the sails. I believe that the engine is probably too small and I am not sure I want to throw annother 15K in addition and the rest.

Thanks again and I will check back on Friday. Have a good week.

[mikemenza]

Just throwing some stuff out there..

there are different Morgan NM45s

There is the Nelson Merek 45R strip down racer, 7ft draft
There's the Nelson Merek 454 Very nice interior either 7ft or center board
then there is the Nelson Merek 43 A center cockpit version, nice interior with full draft or center board..

Then there are NM45s built by others...

Obviously looking at boats too long..

[mebucko]

Newbie to this site. I ended up buying this boat last December! I gave her a good looking over including rigging before I pulled the trigger though. So far, I'm super happy with my choice.
The owner did indeed take good care of her. He was the original owner and doted on her. Two thoughts: From what I've researched, rod rigging fails at the deck level connections. So, I'm thinking of removeing 2-3" of the mast and replaceing the original fittings with swageloks and use the original rod rigging!. If this is not a reasonable way to go, I will probably go with wire. Second thought, I'm going to add a linear drive autopilot and plan to do bay and occasional coastal sailing. Raymarine type 1 is for 24,000 disp and under. Type 2 is for 33,000 and under and uses twice the amps. The boat is 24,000 so type 1 right?
I hope this stirs the pot.....

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by mebucko

Newbie to this site. I ended up buying this boat last December! I gave her a good looking over including rigging before I pulled the trigger though. So far, I'm super happy with my choice.
The owner did indeed take good care of her. He was the original owner and doted on her. Two thoughts: From what I've researched, rod rigging fails at the deck level connections. So, I'm thinking of removeing 2-3" of the mast and replaceing the original fittings with swageloks and use the original rod rigging!. If this is not a reasonable way to go, I will probably go with wire. Second thought, I'm going to add a linear drive autopilot and plan to do bay and occasional coastal sailing. Raymarine type 1 is for 24,000 disp and under. Type 2 is for 33,000 and under and uses twice the amps. The boat is 24,000 so type 1 right?
I hope this stirs the pot.....

Congrats on the new boat.
Rod rigging usually fails at the rod head. This can be top or bottom. The rod can be re headed, but it is not always cost effective.

If you ever plan on doing any long passages, you are better off to have the beefier AP drive.

[mebucko]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Congrats on the new boat.
Rod rigging usually fails at the rod head. This can be top or bottom. The rod can be re headed, but it is not always cost effective.

If you ever plan on doing any long passages, you are better off to have the beefier AP drive.

Thanks Paul for your quick response and thoughts. with two of my previous boats, I used a company which make elevator cables to build my standing rigging... A good way to save some money if it's not to complicated and you don't mind going up the mast!

[saildale]

Originally Posted by mebucko

Newbie to this site. I ended up buying this boat last December! I gave her a good looking over including rigging before I pulled the trigger though. So far, I'm super happy with my choice.
The owner did indeed take good care of her. He was the original owner and doted on her. Two thoughts: From what I've researched, rod rigging fails at the deck level connections. So, I'm thinking of removeing 2-3" of the mast and replaceing the original fittings with swageloks and use the original rod rigging!. If this is not a reasonable way to go, I will probably go with wire. Second thought, I'm going to add a linear drive autopilot and plan to do bay and occasional coastal sailing. Raymarine type 1 is for 24,000 disp and under. Type 2 is for 33,000 and under and uses twice the amps. The boat is 24,000 so type 1 right?
I hope this stirs the pot.....

I see that you own a Nelson marek 454. I am thinking of making an offer on the one in Daytona. It fast a conventional main (not full battens) and no lazy jacks. I am a fit 73 year old (still fly main jib and spinnaker from the trapeze of my racing dingy) but I am afraid that this may be too much main and genoa for coastal single handing. With a a stack pack conversation is it more too handle than a Beneteau or Bavaria of the same size? I love the boat . If the answer to the above is no, tell me what engine is in yours. This has the original 32hp Universal which is to small for the boat. My email is saildale@hotmail.

[mebucko]

Hi saildale, Yes, mine is the original main with standard battens, roller furling jib, and 32 hp Universal. I'm also up in my years but I've recently single handed her in the San Francisco Bay with 12-5 knot winds. Beautiful fall day. She's responsive, balanced, and fast. Above 15 knot winds I had to ease the main. A reef would be the recomendation though. I'm not familiar with stack pack, etc. My engine moves her along just fine at 6+ knots so I have no temptation to swap it out. I am considering Lazy Jacks as well. The boom is fairly high which is great for safety but a bit of a pain to furl the main since my dodger limits standing room. I too love the boat. I finally collected all the components for my linear autopilot and will be installing that in the coming months. I'll also mention that with an eased main and a back winded jib, she hove to very comfortably. Keep me posted on your puchase...

[saildale]

I have raced my performance dingy out of St. Francis Yacht Club in the waves coming under the bridge. Racing a dingy there involved more swimming than I should admit to.

Still have the dingy and I have been doing a single handed trapeze sailing Youtube video annually starting with my 70th birthday. Link:

[mebucko]

Saildale, I've not sailed her in such conditions yet, so it's difficult for me to answer. I assume you'll be carring sail which she needs to keep her steady. She does punch through waves of moderate size and seems to be dry below. I also must mention that mine is the fixed keel with a seven foot draft racing hull and she points wonderfully. She is very responsive and seem effortless to make course ajustments. It will be very interesting to see how she handles under auto pilot in the rougher stuff. Shorten sail early and keep her loaded up and driving an you'll love her. I have no plans for extensive voyageing. A rare coastal trip will keep me amused.