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Old 24-11-2014, 14:51   #61
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Re: Need to see out from all berths - boat suggestions?

BAM-
Ports below the toerail are still the exception to the rule on most small boats, and for good reason. Boats heel, ports leak, oops, someone didn't dog the port and now there's fifty gallons of water in your berth.

The good news, however, is that you are interested in BUYING a boat. That means whatever you want, you can MAKE AND DO. You want more ports in the cabin? OK, you buy a couple of ports and a saw and stick 'em in. It really isn't hard to install ports, or to hire out the job.

Which is why there's an old saying, "Whatever floats your boat."

Looking to find everything you want all premade and ready to climb in? Sounds like one of those TV house-hunting shows where the young couple says "Oh, those walls are BEIGE, I can't buy a BEIGE HOUSE." Yeah, well, if you're going to own it? Roll up yours sleeves and buy your own paint!

I actually overheard someone's wife saying he couldn't buy a pricey Albin trawler, some years ago, because yes, it did have a Jacuzzi in the aft head, but the interior didn't come in pickled oak, and that was the only interior she would accept.

Really?

You want windows, buy some windows.
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Old 25-11-2014, 09:33   #62
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Re: Need to see out from all berths - boat suggestions?

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BAM-
Ports below the toerail are still the exception to the rule on most small boats, and for good reason. Boats heel, ports leak, oops, someone didn't dog the port and now there's fifty gallons of water in your berth.

The good news, however, is that you are interested in BUYING a boat. That means whatever you want, you can MAKE AND DO. You want more ports in the cabin? OK, you buy a couple of ports and a saw and stick 'em in. It really isn't hard to install ports, or to hire out the job.

You want windows, buy some windows.
Thank-you - I had posed this question previously: Can dead lights be safely added in this way without negatively impacting the structural integrity of the boat? Of course it can be done, I'm asking if it should be done, or if that's asking for trouble. If it's really as simple as adding dead lights, then my choices are almost unlimited. And no, I don't want ports that can be left open and flood the cabin.

I've added the Peterson to the list as well, that looks good, even though it's an older boat and would be more work.

I never said I needed a 360 degree view from the cabin, as many of you have pointed out, that's not going happen, and I'm not asking for that - I just want windows in the master cabin and an open feeling space. I don't like the spaces where you have to slide yourself in like a pie into a pizza oven, either, I want to be able to sit up without crushing my skull and look out a window. I'm not expecting a 360 degree view, just some view. Thanks.
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Old 25-11-2014, 10:09   #63
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Re: Need to see out from all berths - boat suggestions?

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I'm looking to purchase my first boat...
Here are the basic requirements: ...must have...the ability to see out a "window"...at least to each side of the boat from the master berth and preferably all berths...
These are the requirements which will likely prevent you from ever finding the right boat on the secondary market. Eliminating the "all berths" requirement gets you down to 2 windows to fulfill your needs. But, unless they are very large, it is unlikely that you will see much when you sit up to look out.

With a porthole, you must nearly press your face against it in order to look around. If you don't mind crawling across the bed, or getting out of bed, to peer out of a port, this technically meets your requirement. And it is a simple matter for a professional to install 2 portlights nearly anywhere without hurting the structure. Though it will almost certainly hurt your resale appeal/value.

But you gave the impression that you wanted "windows" large enough for you to sit up in bed and simply look around...at all berths.
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Old 25-11-2014, 10:20   #64
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Re: Need to see out from all berths - boat suggestions?

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These are the requirements which will likely prevent you from ever finding the right boat on the secondary market. Eliminating the "all berths" requirement gets you down to 2 windows to fulfill your needs. But, unless they are very large, it is unlikely that you will see much when you sit up to look out.

But you gave the impression that you wanted "windows" large enough for you to sit up in bed and simply look around...at all berths.
In a perfect world, there would be decent sized dead lights on all the berths - if that's not a possibility, then at least in the master cabin. For example, the Beneteau 43.3 (Moorings out of Tortola) that we leased earlier this month had "windows" in the V-berth that we occupied that were perfectly suitable. (Sorry, I think I gave the wrong model number earlier in a post, but it was the 43.3) That boat is on the list, but I don't love the smooshed feeling of the rear cabin. Obviously, everything in a boat (as in life) is a compromise; I'm just looking for more options.
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Old 25-11-2014, 12:16   #65
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Re: Need to see out from all berths - boat suggestions?

BAM,

A qualified ship- or boatwright will be able to install something safely for you, depending on the construction of the boat. IIRC, the Petersens have deadlights port and starboard but not aft in the aft cabin. Will views to each side be "enough" for you?

I'm also not clear on whether you want the visibility at night or in the daytime? I'm thinking work in day, sleep at night. The reason I bring this up is that a deck saloon might work for you, like for "the office" where you and your SO are both working. Then for looking out, it would be whatever ports are installed for the berths, or deadlights that you add. IMO, at night on a boat, you want to go above decks to have a good look around, there's no substitute for that. You confirm that your snubber isn't chafed, that all the anchor lights are where they "ought" to be, no suspicious small boat traffic, etc. You can only get that view from outside.

Ann
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Old 25-11-2014, 14:08   #66
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Re: Need to see out from all berths - boat suggestions?

Structural integrity, haha.(G)


In the post mortems on the infamous Fastnet racing disaster, it was mentioned that on some boats the cabintop sides were actually stove in by the waves. In a fiberglass boat that's less likely to happen than with old wood construction, but you can still match, exceed, or fall short of whatever standards your hull was built to.


A friend I crewed for asked me to help replace the leaking portlights with new ones from the original source. He said we'd have a hard time getting them out since they were Lexan. While we were discussing this, I said "Lexan? I don't think so." and just swung my arm, from the elbow down, with a plain carpenter's hammer. DINK! and the cheap acrylic glazing exploded out.


Structural?


Get small, thick, well-glazed portlights or deadlights, your choice, and ideally they will be as strong or stronger than your hull. You can shop around for whatever suits your style & budget, while looking for the boat.


I've added hatches and opening ports in decks & hulls, and it is "just carpentry". Measure once and cut twice. Oh, wait, maybe that's the other way around.(G)
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Old 26-11-2014, 15:38   #67
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Re: Need to see out from all berths - boat suggestions?

Thanks all! If I can indeed add some dead lights, within reason of course, then that really opens everything up for me - no particular pun intended.

I was previously told that I couldn't do that, but I was told that by the person who said that a Beneteau wouldn't safely sail to the South Pacific and back. And lest you think I'm taking advice from somebody who doesn't know anything - this person writes books and teaches classes about blue water sailing and has 100,000 miles of open ocean under his belt.

Does anything else out there have any concerns about adding a couple of "windows" in the V-berth, for example? Thanks again, -B
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Old 26-11-2014, 15:45   #68
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Re: Need to see out from all berths - boat suggestions?

BAM-
The party who wasn't in favor of windows, represents the majority opinion and arguably is right, in general terms.


The windows on an Amtrak train are the only bulletproof section of the passenger cars, required by federal law. The windows on commercial jetliners are never known to simply "blow out". There's nothing intrinsically wrong with windows, except, no matter how carefully they are installed they represent a potential failure point and unless the person installing them does a perfect job, did I mention, finding fifty gallons of seawater in your berth? Or five thousand in your bilge?


To most of us windows below represent a potential danger, an unwarranted expense, and a gross violation of KISS. You've got different priorities, so if you want windows, add windows. And if you make sure the job is done right, yes, you can sail the boat in the Southern Ocean, and the windows won't make any difference in how safe it is to be there.
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Old 26-11-2014, 16:06   #69
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Re: Need to see out from all berths - boat suggestions?

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Does anything else out there have any concerns about adding a couple of "windows" in the V-berth, for example? Thanks again, -B
B: Just a small caveat -- Adding ports in the V-berth area is structurally a bit riskier than around an aft cabin. The bow area is both more highly stressed from rig loads and subject to wave strikes. These factors add to the danger of weakening the hull in a stressed area and having ports be blown in by wave action.

Does not mean that it is not possible, just that one needs to be very careful in doing the job.

Jim
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Old 26-11-2014, 16:18   #70
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Re: Need to see out from all berths - boat suggestions?

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B: Just a small caveat -- Adding ports in the V-berth area is structurally a bit riskier than around an aft cabin. The bow area is both more highly stressed from rig loads and subject to wave strikes. These factors add to the danger of weakening the hull in a stressed area and having ports be blown in by wave action.

Does not mean that it is not possible, just that one needs to be very careful in doing the job.

Jim
I understand. And I assume that whether it's production or aftermarket ports below the toe rail, I should be in the habit of putting a fender on ether side of them, not in the middle, and ensuring that neither the fender, dock nor anything else gets to strike them.
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Old 26-11-2014, 16:44   #71
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Re: Need to see out from all berths - boat suggestions?

While you wouldn't locate them right next to your chain plates, there is quite a bit of latitude on placement, particularly if a thorough job is done of reinforcing the area with a bonded doubler of sufficient depth.
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Old 26-11-2014, 17:10   #72
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Re: Need to see out from all berths - boat suggestions?

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While you wouldn't locate them right next to your chain plates, there is quite a bit of latitude on placement, particularly if a thorough job is done of reinforcing the area with a bonded doubler of sufficient depth.
I'm not familiar with the term "bonded doubler", please explain.
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Old 26-11-2014, 17:43   #73
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Re: Need to see out from all berths - boat suggestions?

Fiberglass boat example:

The area around the cutout would be reinforced by increasing its thickness (on the inside of the boat) 2x-3x (perhaps) by bonding layers of plywood and/or fiberglass, thus increasing strength and preserving rigidity.
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Old 26-11-2014, 19:32   #74
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Re: Need to see out from all berths - boat suggestions?

BAM,

If you were going to hire a yard to to the work, you'd be talking to at least 3 yards beforehand, and be d--ned sure you had them write down what they would do and how they would do it. Then, you'd probably ask again on CF as to which method, etc. was the best, and you'd listen very carefully to people like minaret, Terra Nova, neilpride,and Maine Sail, and maybe even consult a naval architect.

In all honesty, my personal sense is that you might give it a try, with the boat in its original state, and see if you can cope. You might surprise yourself, and then you could save a whole bunch of money that you could spend on whatever pleases you. If not, well then, you have the satisfaction of having tried, and the knowledge in back of you for doing the tiresome due diligence to make it a way that you can live with.

Ann
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Old 26-11-2014, 20:02   #75
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Re: Need to see out from all berths - boat suggestions?

Have you considered resurrecting Frank Lloyd Wright and getting him to design something for you?
His architecture was always open and airy, with fantastic views. And as an all around spatial genius he could pick up vessel design in a flash I'm sure.
(I have a feeling it might look like some of these modern mega-yachts, lots of glass and SS)
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