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Old 22-07-2010, 05:31   #16
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Udo, you'll find a reoccurring theme among experienced wooden boat owners, here and the other places you've posted.

Again, regardless of what your surveyor is telling you (he may be giving you just what he's being paid to give you) if the boat shows gaps and light at her seams, she's in need of repairs, recaulking at the very least, probably considerably more (refastening, planking replacement, etc.)

In the end, as I and others have mentioned, the bottom of the hull is 'glassed over for a reason, which 99% of the time is to stave off the proper repairs it needs. The topside planking is showing you what it needs, the bottom is very likely in similar condition, except it has a plastic skin hiding it for the time being.

In short, carvel planking is a consumable item, just like an automotive oil filter, it wears out and needs to be replaced. During the life of planking, they may be repaired, refastened, recaulked, but eventually the planking is just shot. The garboards are most always the first to go, followed by the broads. Butt blocks and scarfs start to pop open and it's an ever accelerating, downward spiral after a time. When the planking gets to this stage in it's life, this is when some owners decide to 'glass the hull.
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Old 22-07-2010, 07:07   #17
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Udo, you'll find a reoccurring theme among experienced wooden boat owners, here and the other places you've posted.

Again, regardless of what your surveyor is telling you (he may be giving you just what he's being paid to give you) if the boat shows gaps and light at her seams, she's in need of repairs, recaulking at the very least, probably considerably more (refastening, planking replacement, etc.)

In the end, as I and others have mentioned, the bottom of the hull is 'glassed over for a reason, which 99% of the time is to stave off the proper repairs it needs. The topside planking is showing you what it needs, the bottom is very likely in similar condition, except it has a plastic skin hiding it for the time being.

In short, carvel planking is a consumable item, just like an automotive oil filter, it wears out and needs to be replaced. During the life of planking, they may be repaired, refastened, recaulked, but eventually the planking is just shot. The garboards are most always the first to go, followed by the broads. Butt blocks and scarfs start to pop open and it's an ever accelerating, downward spiral after a time. When the planking gets to this stage in it's life, this is when some owners decide to 'glass the hull.
Hello Par:

Nice to meet your here as well.

The best way (for me) to accumulate knowledge is to listen to as many people possible.
The difficulty, which is unfortunate for me, is that experts do NOT have always the same opinion, even when they see and notice the same issue's!

You indeed see here the same things as the surveyor. The difference in opinion is: You say in fact walk away, too much work and the other one is saying: don't bother, the imperfections won't hurt your boat, repair the small bits, sail and enjoy and in 1 or 2 years time, you decide if you like the boat enough to perform a major job on it or sell it.

Just a different opinion. But both of you know, a good repair job will be a major job for sure.

and now to the points:

the boat shows gaps and light at her seams, she's in need of repairs, recaulking at the very least YES INDEED.

"In the end, as I and others have mentioned, the bottom of the hull is 'glassed over for a reason, which 99% of the time is to stave off the proper repairs it needs"

Yes, but here some expert have different opinions: if done properly, it can hold extremely well. Experts have here DIFFERENT OPINIONS for sure.

But, yes, it was done for the same reasons, very likely as what we can see in the hull above the waterline, that is correct.

The boat is OLD, therefore the price is LOW!

Very clear reason, no illusions!

POSSIBLE TO ENJOY SUCH A BOAT FOR BETWEEN 5 AND 10 YEARS? Or not at all, unless a major repair job has been done to it?

That's the point.

Thanks again for your attention and advice!

Udo
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Old 22-07-2010, 08:37   #18
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Well there are things that can be done- "Splining" comes to mind. In this case each seam would be opened with a saw and a wood spline would be glued in to provide a fair surface for recaulking. It's a lot of work. It's be up to you to determine whether such a job would be worth it to you. Since the frames and keel "look" good, technically the boat would be a candidate.
The fact that the planking is "gappy" even on the topsides points to a refastening as well.

Good news is that if well done you'll probably get another 40-50 years out of it.

You can always sail it with the hope that the glass is holding everything together. 5 years? probably. 10 years? less likely.
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Old 22-07-2010, 23:38   #19
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The surveyor told me that we need, in order to get a full picture of the boat, take it out of the water.

I decided to buy the boat, but of course on the condition that the boat is described as per the advertisement.

Description of the boat in the advert:
The boat is completely dry (from underneath) because of the fibre glass sheeting.

The owner told me verbally:
Only water coming in via the hull above the waterline and rain water via the cockpit

However, I found out that water is coming from underneath as well, probably from in between the keel and the wooden hull via the keel bolts.

If I find out any more (big) problems (not mentioned by the owner) when the boat is out of the water, I definitely would re-consider.

The owner asked me if I want to get the boat out of the water for to evaluate what work needs to be done, or, if it's for to re-consider buying it at all. If it's for re-consideration, he told me that he was going to put it back on the market. btw: The advert was never taken away in the first place, I spend a lot of time to inspect to boat several times and spend money on the surveyor, the pressure on top of it makes me extremely uncomfortable.

So, I am close to walking away.
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Old 23-07-2010, 00:39   #20
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Not excited about re-planking the hull? Then a wooden boat may not be for you. Happy wooden boat owners look forward to this kind of endless love.
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Old 23-07-2010, 01:18   #21
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Working with wood is a pleasure, which I have done before a lot, except on boats.
Having to replace lots of wood requires not only a lot of experience, skills, knowledge and time, but also lots of money. Have to think about my budget as well and the time I can spend on it, I am afraid.

I am not a miljonair,

Cheers,
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Old 23-07-2010, 06:48   #22
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"So, I am close to walking away"


Probably a good thing. Pressure, false claims.... etc and a bad feeling, is good grounds to just walk away and continue looking.



Walking away is the hardest thing one can do, when considering something so heart wrenching a purchase as a boat. But it's something that you need to learn to do! Or you end up an Un-happy customer, when things go south after the purchase.

Keep a cool head and do the right thing for "YOU".... not the seller!

Cheers, may you find the "Right" boat in your future.
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Old 23-07-2010, 07:53   #23
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Just Spline it Udo. It's not the end of the world. (See hartley's post on Sailnet.)
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Old 23-07-2010, 07:55   #24
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Not excited about re-planking the hull? Then a wooden boat may not be for you. Happy wooden boat owners look forward to this kind of endless love.
Very funny.
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Old 23-07-2010, 08:51   #25
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Just Spline it Udo. It's not the end of the world. (See hartley's post on Sailnet.)

I know I love wood and decide to go for it against the advice of many GPR hull owners: they think I am mad! But Plastic can not replace wood in any way.

Still, my time and budget in not unlimited either, so we have to find a healthy balance, between work, family, hobby.

Buying a 2nd boat will be for sure a little easier?

Cheers,

Udo
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Old 23-07-2010, 12:24   #26
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OK, what we did find out is:

1. From the inside NO woodrot at all.
2. Planks fittings to the rib's are also really OK
3. Inspection on the outside not done yet.


4. But, to get the hull above the waterline also water tight, it looks like that corking will not be sufficient and the seems need to be cut open with a saw and pieces of spline wood needs to be glued in. That will be a massive job for sure.

Question: Will the life-span of the boat be influenced a lot if we always get some water in via the hull above the waterline, or will it be only inconvenient?

(This of course under the condition that my surveyor is not finding any other major problems on the outside of the hull and the boat is really healthy on all major points)

That's one of the very last questions I guess (and hope)

Udo
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Old 23-07-2010, 17:55   #27
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- Topsides leaking
- Cockpit leaking
- Leaks under the LWL, location unknown for the most part, though possible suspects at keel bolts (hows that rabbit seam look?)
- Topsides need caulking, may need spines too
- Can't inspect the condition of the bottom planking from the outside because of the 'glass
- Caulking topside seams will stress, if not shear the 'glass from the bottom planks
- You have a lack of experience with wooden boats (not a flaw)

Quote:
Question: Will the life-span of the boat be influenced a lot if we always get some water in via the hull above the waterline, or will it be only inconvenient?
Almost all wooden boats rot from the top down, not the bottom up. Sweet water draining, dripping and leaking into the bilge is what causes this. You can't just leave the plank gaps and try to use the boat. The fasteners will egg out their holes and tear loose from the frames in short order. This means at the very least you'll have to caulk the topside planks. This is good for the topside planks, but places a huge shear load on the bonded bottom planks.
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Old 23-07-2010, 18:05   #28
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... regardless of what your surveyor is telling you (he may be giving you just what he's being paid to give you) ...

Please note the boat is in Sweden. Please go to Swedish surveyors' guild and read about consequences of doing what you say.

Why would a surveyor act against their client?

If you have any real life and first hand bad experiences with a Swedish surveyor, please let their name be known to the guild. If your findings are true, they will not be a surveyor anymore.

barnie
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Old 23-07-2010, 19:39   #29
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Walk or run?

There are so many questions already that the walk or run question is being asked.

It sounds as though the boat is Ok as is, it may have a few more seasons left, but that may be the end of it. You could ask your surveyor if it could ever be brought back to concurs condition (The dream of every wooden boat owner?).

If that's all you want then it may be Ok, but I get the impression that wooden boat owners like wooden boats because they like wood, and the idea of converting it to firewood is unacceptable.

If you're buying because you want the pleasure of a wood boat then why not keep looking for one in "cream puff" condition even if it's smaller, so that as you own the boat over the years you can stay on top of the maintenance. In Sweden I'd be thinking the boat will need to have been kept out of the water and undercover for 8-9 months each year.
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Old 23-07-2010, 21:11   #30
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I'm not sure what you're getting all pissy about Barnakiel, but I wasn't suggesting that Swedish surveyors are negligent, but that they suffer from the same constraints most others do, the client's wishes.

There are three types of survey.

First you can "purchase" a survey for a sale as the owner of a yacht. The survey will praise the good points and down play the bad (assuming all are included). Conversely, you can acquire a "buyer's survey", which will highlight the bad points and glaze over the good.

Both of these things are done regularly and it plays into the hands of the interested party, which interestingly enough typically is the person that paid for the survey! It's not lying, it's good salesmanship, it's good advertising or marketing savvy. In other words, you are getting what you pay for.

Then there is the third type of survey and the only type I've ever preformed, of the dozens I've done and why I insist on being paid up front. This type of survey doesn't care who paid for it, it's just an unbiased, honest assessment of the yacht's condition, like it or not (which is why I get paid up front).

I've had conversations with this poster prior to his posts here, where he's indicated no old wooden boat experience, no wooden boat building or repairing experience, no wood working experience, but a fair amount of problem solving skill (a huge advantage for an old wooden boat owner). My recommendations are in light of these previous conversations and the continuing to increase list of issues this yacht has.

My point is a 15' runabout would be a great introduction to old wooden boat ownership, but this yacht may not be the best way to get your feet wet, considering how deep the monetary pit you can quickly find yourself in, particularly under that 'glass sheath.
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