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Old 24-07-2010, 15:56   #1
udo
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Need Expert Advice 02

Hello everybody,

I my hunt for finding a nice classic, I decided not to take the Koster discussed in the other thread started by me.
I did inspect on another one and I am curious about what the experts could recommend me to look for with the inspection.

The boat:

Linjekrysare, build in 1949, Varnished Oregon Pine, 29 feet, keel below the waterline: 1.2 meters.

Also curious to hear if people know this boat, because i am not able to find any information on the internet or sailguide.com

To me, it looks very similar as: a Nordic Krysare.
see here the link:

http://www.nordiskkryssare.org/index.html

any idea?


Here are the images from the Linjekrysare:

http://dev.colourcertainty.co.uk/01I.../Linjekrysare/

The owner is selling purely because of his age.
He had the boat in his ownership since 1977

The boat is maintained in the classic way: not using modern techniques and varnished like Polyurethane, as far as I could understand.
The boat was held during the winter not under just a cover, but a boat / tent house, so the owner could work during autumn, winter (when not too cold) and spring.

Obviously he stayed on top of it and his estimate was that he spends around 30 - 40 hours outside the sailing season on maintenance.

During the years he had the odd leak thought the deck, but again, solved issue's as soon as he could. Therefore I spotted some wood damage / dis-colouring, but never in the hull. The biggest damage was in the mahogany plywood partition between the front and back side of the cabin (see images). According to the owner this happened 15 years ago and only the outside layer of the plywood is bubbling, but the inside is not rot, still hard. The hull looked very clean inside. The seems between the plans above the waterline seem to close completely after a week of sailing and therefore the hull will be completely closed.
The deck was not made out of plywood, but solid wooden slats, placed right next to each other, and I guess the deck and cabin roof is still covered in the old fashioned way with canvas.

The inboard engine was taken out after (I guess) was too expensive to repair, but it is still possible to put in a 2nd hand or new one + the fuel tank is still in the boat. For now the owner was using an outboard engine for a couple of years.

The boat comes with the outboard engine, winter storage boat tent and cradle, 9 year old main sail and 7 year old furlex roll genua.
Compas, Log (speed), but no depth meter or GPS. Wall electricity connection.

For a price which is probably very reasonable.

Any commends more than welcome.

Udo
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Old 24-07-2010, 16:09   #2
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Boats like these need expert owners. Gaining that knowledge will mean you never sail the boat and will have to undo a lot to learn the tricks of wood boats. It's not that it couldn't be a fun boat but without the experience you'll never be good enough to be able to stay on top of it and fix it quickly. Some people love working on boats and not sailing them. If you can see yourself like that then it might be the right one. Nobody can tell much from just a few pictures. It may have been well maintained since it does look very well maintained. The question is could you do it too?

I would say it's more about you than the boat. Don't let your heart get in the way of your wallet. It is an excpetionally beautiful boat.
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Old 24-07-2010, 16:14   #3
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Comments? That is a beautiful boat! No idea what it means to care for it, though.
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Old 24-07-2010, 16:28   #4
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Boats like these need expert owners. Gaining that knowledge will mean you never sail the boat and will have to undo a lot to learn the tricks of wood boats. It's not that it couldn't be a fun boat but without the experience you'll never be good enough to be able to stay on top of it and fix it quickly. Some people love working on boats and not sailing them. If you can see yourself like that then it might be the right one. Nobody can tell much from just a few pictures. It may have been well maintained since it does look very well maintained. The question is could you do it too?

I would say it's more about you than the boat. Don't let your heart get in the way of your wallet. It is an excpetionally beautiful boat.

Hello Paul,


I have worked with my hands in the past a lot, on wood as well, but not on boats. Having spend 10 years behind computers, I would love to start working on a project whereby my hands can do something again.

The present owner told me that he spends roughly between 30 - 40 hours a year outside the sailing season. Having lot's of experts here in Sweden, who I could ask for advice, including the present owner, I guess, it should be no too difficult to do the regular maintenance work myself?

Udo
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Old 25-07-2010, 14:54   #5
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Don't know the specific boat design but from the photos the boat looks very beautiul and for its age generally well maintained. As other have stated a wooden boat is an enormous project, but with only a five to six month sailing season... and the price of booze... in Sweden, what else are you going to do in Autumn and winter.

I lived in Denmark for five years in my late twenties(long time ago) and I helped two friends restore an old wooden boat. It was a great deal of work but very satisfying.

My suggestions would be to find someone with considerable knowledge of wooden boats (not that difficult in Scandanavia) and let them view it and check overall integrity. They will also understand/advise on the cosmetic improvement of the inside. However European marine ply at that time was probably the best in the world, so the owners contention that its surface dis-colouration only.. could be true. Again a knowledgable friend or paid expert can advise.

Northern Europe and UK probably has a greatest concentration of old wooden boats in service than anywhere else in the world. As stated above also one of the shortest sailing seasons.

Amigo is one year younger than me (Actually probably conceived about the same time)and as I am located in an all year round sailing area, I wouldn't personally consider it. Each year I need much more care and attention than I did a few years ago and am likely to require much more going forward. However, if the boat is generally sound and you create a multi year and rigid out of season programme, whereby you can actually sail each season then its doable.

Final caveat... You must have either an expert friend or surveyor view before purchase also carry with you a sharp thin knife.

Regards

Alan
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Old 25-07-2010, 15:07   #6
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and I helped two friends restore an old wooden boat. It was a great deal of work but very satisfying.
My suggestions would be to find someone with considerable knowledge of wooden boats

Alan
Via various forums, found a few knowledgeable people nearby in Stockholm.
They confirm: regular maintenance outside the sailing season between 30 - 50 hours, not including any major job's like restoration projects like: Canvas deck-renewal, improving and replacing damaged wood interior, and so on. So gradually i am able to get a more clear picture.

I could manage 50 - 60 hours a year, I think

Udo
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Old 26-07-2010, 15:28   #7
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I believe that you are looking at much more than that. The boat I helped/worked on was much smaller and I contributed two or three times that over a six month period. The others put much more.

50-60 hours a year would be what was necessary to keep it maintained..after... you brought it up to new level(its unlikely that a survey won't identify some fundamental needs in addition to the previous stated needs). However, assuming the survey is okay and the only work needed is generally consmetic and if you assess the boat's upgrade as a three year project and you can create and stick to a carefully planned and disciplined programme...whereby you can have your full sailing season...then it is doable.

If you search earlier threads you will find that 90% of those posters who undertook or are undertaking a refit/upgrade estimate that it always takes atleast three times longer than anticipated. So do make sure that the boat is worthy of your time.

Best regards

Alan
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Old 26-07-2010, 15:32   #8
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I believe that you are looking at much more than that. The boat I helped/worked on was much smaller and I contributed two or three times that over a six month period. The others put much more.

50-60 hours a year would be what was necessary to keep it maintained..after... you brought it up to new level(its unlikely that a survey won't identify some fundamental needs in addition to the previous stated needs). However, assuming the survey is okay and the only work needed is generally consmetic and if you assess the boat's upgrade as a three year project and you can create and stick to a carefully planned and disciplined programme...whereby you can have your full sailing season...then it is doable.

If you search earlier threads you will find that 90% of those posters who undertook or are undertaking a refit/upgrade estimate that it always takes atleast three times longer than anticipated. So do make sure that the boat is worthy of your time.

Best regards

Alan
Alan,

I have renovated many houses in the past and unfortunately I have to agree: it always takes longer.

Having said that, a wooden boat owner in Stockholm could give me a very accurate description of what he does and how much time he spends on all acitivities outside the sailing season. He keeps his boat in the highest top finish and is using 60 hours. If less perfect, he could do it with 40


That's what he told me. (Sailing and maintaining his own boats basically his whole life)
Udo
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Old 26-07-2010, 18:09   #9
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Then I suppose it come down, to your inspection with an experienced friend or professional survey.

Good luck and I hope it works out

Regards

Alan
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Old 27-07-2010, 02:30   #10
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Then I suppose it come down, to your inspection with an experienced friend or professional survey.

Good luck and I hope it works out

Regards

Alan

Thanks Alan,

btw I am also considering a Laurin Koster K25.

On another forum (sailnet.com) they told me that the Linjekrysare is really a performance boat and not easy to sail single handed , whilst the Laurin will be much easier to manage alone (family members have 0 experience) Sailed a lot with crew members having 0 experience, but the boat needs to be (of course) suitable for the task.

The general view I came across in many forums is: Wood should not require the double amount of time for regular maintenance compared with GPR, as long you stay on top of it and as the boat you buy is in top condition.

Here is the Laurin I am going to look at.

LaurinKoster-K25-01

But of course, price is higher, still not too bad, asking price is € 11000

Best regards,

Udo
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Old 27-07-2010, 13:33   #11
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Dear Udo,

I didn't mean to give the impression that wooden boats needed twice as much time as others. I was relating to my friend's boat, which was really a project boat and needed a massive amount of work/time to bring up to new basic standards. After the refit was completed then annual maintainence and further improvements were easily facilitated in the off season.

I don't know either boat so if local experience says the former is not suitable for singlehanding and is more performance orientated then go with that assessment and/or arrange a sail and check yourself. We don't have the design/ sail plan/ weight statistics to assess however a 1.2 metre keel on the length does not immediately shout extreme performance boat to me. You mention suitable for the task....what task?

The laurinKoster looks lovely too... Well maintained and probably younger...but photos are no substitute for a careful experienced survey. Some discolouration would not be unusual but as Paul stated above a wooden boat can become an albatross rather than a catalyst for a new sailing experience, so do survey.

As to cost/buying price. It is over thirty years since I last visited Sweden. However I remember it to be the most expensive place I have ever been. So the Euro11k could be relatively cheap in Swedish comparision. I do know that Stolkholm fjoird is a wonderful place to sail with an unlimited amount of sailing destinations/islands.

Finally if your search continues...don't worry. Just keep posting the pictures they are a joy to see.

Best regards

Alan
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Old 27-07-2010, 14:07   #12
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Dear Udo,

I didn't mean to give the impression that wooden boats needed twice as much time as others. I was relating to my friend's boat, which was really a project boat and needed a massive amount of work/time to bring up to new basic standards. After the refit was completed then annual maintainence and further improvements were easily facilitated in the off season.

I don't know either boat so if local experience says the former is not suitable for singlehanding and is more performance orientated then go with that assessment and/or arrange a sail and check yourself. We don't have the design/ sail plan/ weight statistics to assess however a 1.2 metre keel on the length does not immediately shout extreme performance boat to me. You mention suitable for the task....what task?

The laurinKoster looks lovely too... Well maintained and probably younger...but photos are no substitute for a careful experienced survey. Some discolouration would not be unusual but as Paul stated above a wooden boat can become an albatross rather than a catalyst for a new sailing experience, so do survey.

As to cost/buying price. It is over thirty years since I last visited Sweden. However I remember it to be the most expensive place I have ever been. So the Euro11k could be relatively cheap in Swedish comparision. I do know that Stolkholm fjoird is a wonderful place to sail with an unlimited amount of sailing destinations/islands.

Finally if your search continues...don't worry. Just keep posting the pictures they are a joy to see.

Best regards

Alan


Hi Alan,


Not to worry! The more feedback I get the better! Everyone is having his own unique experience and that's what is important for me to hear!

Listening to all of you, I decided it's better get a boat in a condition as good as possible (and pay a bit more), because I have the time for regular maintenance and a little extra work, but sure not for a major renovation!

Did renovate many old houses in the past (hobby) and sure, it always takes 2 to 3 times longer. Therefore I am 10 times more careful in choosing the right boat to own.

Both local and international experience point out that the Linjekrysare could well be also a cruiser, but far more sensitive than the Koster, for sure, the Linje, is more about (peformance) sailing than cruising I guess.
But indeed also not extreme perfomance.

The task: Not too heavy on the helm, sea worthy I prefer, reasonable comfortable, not over sensitive, but sensitive and not to sluggish, easy to handle also single handed, since I sail mostly with people having 0 experience. (Sailed a 29 foot Dehler, no problem)

Of course, images are no substitute, but when I inspect myself, I take pictures of every single corner and that really helps to spot issue's I did not see on-site.

and now Sweden: Sweden had the reputation in Europe to be extremely expensive. Sweden's economy did not suffer from the 2nd world war, instead benefited selling iron ore to the Germans during the war! after the war their industry just continued exporting all over the world. Up to the late 80's, one of the strongest economies in the world, till their Banks got bored and wanted more and started to gamble with everybody's money, like all Banks did recently all over the world causing a major world wide recession. Sweden got it earlier: The government needed to bail out most Banks in Sweden in the early 90's and the country was on it's knees! Therefore they joined the EU!

In short: Their currency collapsed and since then, (after also a major properly bubble burst) Sweden never got back to where it was before.

Right now and particulalrly 2.5 years ago when I moved to Sweden, Sweden was having the cheapest houses all over the West of Europe. (one of the reasons I went!) For the same money I could buy 1 hour south of London, only a house in depressing area's and for the same amount one of the most expensive in Jarna, south of Stockholm. It was indeed slightly different.

In the United Kindom, could not even contemplate of having a boat, since mooring in the marina could cost between 4000 and 9000 per year.

Here 10 minutes away from me just 170 per year.

So I can have a life style in Sweden unthinkable in the UK.


Yes, I keep on searching and this weekend I will have a look at the Laurin Koster

LaurinKoster-K25-01

and an extended Folk Boat design:
Nathasha


All the best and again thanks for any feedback,

Udo
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Old 27-07-2010, 14:45   #13
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Sailnet appears down so I'll post here:
The lauren koster looks to be a good possibility for an easily sailed "cruiser". I'll agree that some double enders can be quite fast - if this one carried her fullness further aft, she would be a little Holger Danske

I'd have more of an issue with "natasha" . Older lapstrake boats can be more problematic if they develop seeping between the planks as they are harder to rectify. Also Natasha is quite lightly framed (lap boats often are as the construction method provides some rigidity) The downside being that there is more opportunity for the hull to work in heavy seas. Also the discoloration around the fastenings would be worrysome.

Regarding maintenance, I do it myself and it's under 40 hours a year (excepting major projects).
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Old 27-07-2010, 15:39   #14
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Sailnet appears down so I'll post here:
The lauren koster looks to be a good possibility for an easily sailed "cruiser". I'll agree that some double enders can be quite fast - if this one carried her fullness further aft, she would be a little Holger Danske

I'd have more of an issue with "natasha" . Older lapstrake boats can be more problematic if they develop seeping between the planks they are harder to rectify. Also Natasha is quite lightly framed (lap boats often are as the construction method provides some rigidity) The downside being that there is more opportunity for the hull to work in heavy seas. Also the discoloration around the fastenings would be worrysome.
Yep, the Avid Laurin: found some information:

Arvid Laurin
Om SY Ethena SY Ethena's Blog

Yes and Nathasha: These hulls are of course always more work, even if they would be as good.
But your feedback is very good! I think I go for the Laurin in this case.

Udo
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Old 27-07-2010, 15:45   #15
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Dear Udo,

Euro11k could be relatively cheap in Swedish comparision.
Best regards

Alan

Alan, I could have answered your commend actually just with a few words (silly me, always talking too much!)

I pay in Sweden 11K
I pay in the Netherlands between 22K and over 24K

see here these examples:
koster Lauren Koster K25 bouwjaar 1962 te koop op www.botentekoop.nl
Mahonie Koster Laurin Koster Spitsgat bouwjaar 1978 te koop op www.botentekoop.nl

Food and energy is here expensive: hughe country with just a few people living here. (but not boats!)

Cheers,

Udo
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