Need Expert Advice 02

[anglooff]

My god Udo...the eye candy... is almost overkill.
The two Dutch boats are/look in excellent condition, but yours at half price therefore seems a steal (Caveat. from photos)

My brother in law bought a British adaptation of a folkboat (C. 25ft built in C 1950s) in 1965 and I have many happy summer weekend memories. A safe boat but as S&S stated varied greatly from boat to boat as to strength.

I am looking forward to hearing about hands on experience this weekend.

Regards

Alan

PS. So we now have beautiful Swedish women, inexpensive living, and reasonable food and drink pices and half price boats. I must revisit

[MichaelC]

Both the first two boats seem pretty well maintained. The Natasha, which is far and away the prettiest of the three, has some serious plank problems which I would not touch [not that I am telling you not to]. I have owned fiberglass boats, wooden boats adnd one aluminum hard chined boat. The aluminum was the easiest for maintenance, strongest and lightest of all. Fantastic material. Wood and fiberglass, if new, are about the same maintenance. Older wood boats are both a joy and a royal pain in the butt. I love a double ender. I am building a 32' DE hard chined wooden boat at the moment. But I think this double ender is too lightly built. Much depends on what you intend to do with her, and how you feel about boats. Do you want a heart stoppingly beautiful yacht? Or do you want a boat? [I fall clearly and solidly into the latter category]. If you are a boat lover, as opposed to a yacht lover [and yes, they can and do overlap] then the tedium of maintenance on an older wooden boat will quickly pale, and you will slack off on it, and the boat will go to hell in a hurry. You must look at yourself hard in the mirror, stop dreaming, and be realistic about what you want to do with your time. Life is measured, not in money, but in the minutes you have to do with as you choose.

[udo]

Originally Posted by anglooff

PS. So we now have beautiful Swedish women, inexpensive living, and reasonable food and drink pices and half price boats. I must revisit

Indeed, you got the point! also half price houses! + sailing paradise just next door, 10 minutes away. You only need to like the long winters with -30C and the short summer sailing season and you're OK. But what can I say? We can't have it all.

Cheers,

Udo

[udo]

Originally Posted by MichaelC

The Natasha, which is far and away the prettiest of the three, has some serious plank problems which I would not touch

Interesting! How can you see that? which images? Like to learn from you!

Originally Posted by MichaelC

I have owned fiberglass boats, wooden boats adnd one aluminum hard chined boat. The aluminum was the easiest for maintenance, strongest and lightest of all. Fantastic material.

If I had the money, aluminum would be my choice as well.

There is a ship designer in the Netherlands started by the father of the present designer: Dick Koopmans. Many of his design are build in aluminum

At the top of this page you find one (Koopmans 40) and you can sail around the world with these, no problem.

Home Port Yachts: Jachtmakelaar voor zeiljachten en motorjachten
Dick Koopmans Jachtontwerpers

Originally Posted by MichaelC

Wood and fiberglass, if new, are about the same maintenance.

Interesting you say that. Therefore I decided that in case I buy wood, better get one in top condition.

Originally Posted by MichaelC

. But I think this double ender is too lightly built.

Avid Laurin intended to build relative strong build boats, so I wonder, how can you see that via the images?

Originally Posted by MichaelC

Much depends on what you intend to do with her, and how you feel about boats. Do you want a heart stoppingly beautiful yacht? Or do you want a boat? [I fall clearly and solidly into the latter category]. If you are a boat lover, as opposed to a yacht lover [and yes, they can and do overlap] then the tedium of maintenance on an older wooden boat will quickly pale, and you will slack off on it, and the boat will go to hell in a hurry. You must look at yourself hard in the mirror, stop dreaming, and be realistic about what you want to do with your time. Life is measured, not in money, but in the minutes you have to do with as you choose.

Very good point and that is my struggle right now!

What I want to do?

During the sailing season exploring the Swedish coats line and Archipelo's. Next step will be to explore the Norwegian fjords. Don't think I will go much further, therefore to have a boat which is not just an archipelo cruiser, but can go a little further, that would be great.
But not very keen to make big crossings, just coast line cruising.

The sailing season is here short and the winter season long. but here in the south of Sweden, the winters are relative mild, therefore there is a long non-sailing season in which I can do some work on the boat.

Spending 8 weeks 1 Saturday and I would already be able to allocate 60 hours for regular maintenance. (And it is possible to have the boat at 10 minutes from my house! during the winter)

According to some very experienced wooden boat owners here in Stockholm, that should be sufficient (for regular maintenance)

More than happy to hear your feedback if this plan is unrealistic with the Laurin Koster.

Best regards,

Udo

[S&S]

Originally Posted by udo

Interesting! How can you see that? which images? Like to learn from you!

natasha:
Photo 3 the butt ends look bad. Photo 19 there's some fastener discoloration up bt the stem. she's very lightly built

If I had the money, aluminum would be my choice as well.

There is a ship designer in the Netherlands started by the father of the present designer: Dick Koopmans. Many of his design are build in aluminum

At the top of this page you find one (Koopmans 40) and you can sail around the world with these, no problem.

Home Port Yachts: Jachtmakelaar voor zeiljachten en motorjachten
Dick Koopmans Jachtontwerpers

Heard of Koopmans. Well regarded IIRC.

Interesting you say that. Therefore I decided that in case I buy wood, better get one in top condition.

Always a good idea. In my experience all boats eat time- mostly with system repairs. the only thing different about wood is that if something needs to be done you won't be able to put it off like you can with glass

Avid Laurin intended to build relative strong build boats, so I wonder, how can you see that via the images?

I'll disagree with Michael- The Laurin is not heavily framed but is adequate for a 25 footer

(actually the heaviest constuction seems to be the Linjekrysare )

This would be something to go over with the surveyor. We'd need more bilge shots to make a better determination

What I want to do?

During the sailing season exploring the Swedish coats line and Archipelo's. Next step will be to explore the Norwegian fjords. Don't think I will go much further, therefore to have a boat which is not just an archipelo cruiser, but can go a little further, that would be great.
But not very keen to make big crossings, just coast line cruising.

The sailing season is here short and the winter season long. but here in the south of Sweden, the winters are relative mild, therefore there is a long non-sailing season in which I can do some work on the boat.

Spending 8 weeks 1 Saturday and I would already be able to allocate 60 hours for regular maintenance. (And it is possible to have the boat at 10 minutes from my house! during the winter)

According to some very experienced wooden boat owners here in Stockholm, that should be sufficient (for regular maintenance)

More than happy to hear your feedback if this plan is unrealistic with the Laurin Koster.

Best regards,

Udo

the Laurin will do what you describe. 60 hrs/yr + improvements is reasonable BUT--- you have to be disciplined in getting your maintenance tasks done.

[udo]

Originally Posted by S&S

natasha:
Photo 3 the butt ends look bad. Photo 19 there's some fastener discoloration up bt the stem. she's very lightly built.

Than i forget about this one!
Actually i noticed image 3 and had my questions, but thought maybe that's normal, so hey, there you go, my eye's are not trained enough, yet, still I had here a question as well, but not coming to the right conclusion here.

Originally Posted by S&S

Heard of Koopmans. Well regarded IIRC.

I just love these! Koopmans senior wrote a book going around the world, very impressive! His alu designs with keels which rotate when you hit the ground! Perfect design! and his designs are not floating caravans, just real boats, non stop! with fantastic teak interiors.

For 2nd hand glass, staring price around € 30K, alu probably € 70 K or more. (don't look at the new price, that's for people with lots of money!
If I had the money, it would go for these.

Originally Posted by S&S

Always a good idea. In my experience all boats eat time- mostly with system repairs. the only thing different about wood is that if something needs to be done you won't be able to put it off like you can with glass

True, but a good excersice for me! Stops me to keep on working in my business without a break. Forces me to do something else for a day!

Originally Posted by S&S

I'll disagree with Michael- The Laurin is not heavily framed but is adequate for a 25 footer

Do you know these Laurin Kosters very well, of is that what you can see from the images?

Originally Posted by S&S

This would be something to go over with the surveyor. We'd need more bilge shots to make a better determination

Of course, I have to do my work here properly with an expert.

Originally Posted by S&S

The Laurin will do what you describe. 60 hrs/yr + improvements is reasonable BUT--- you have to be disciplined in getting your maintenance tasks done.

Yep, and many thanks for the feedback,

Udo

[S&S]

Do you know these Laurin Kosters very well, of is that what you can see from the images?

Not these specifically, but I'm looking at what's average for a 25' carvel hull with steam bent frames. (Frame dimension and spacing). She's not a tank, but an average strength build. Bilge shots would give a better idea of how the floors (frame to keel connections) are made and how often.

the Linjekrysare with the staggered rivetting is actually a better design (which is why she's still tight after 60 years).

[udo]

Originally Posted by S&S

Not these specifically, but I'm looking at what's average for a 25' carvel hull with steam bent frames. (Frame dimension and spacing). She's not a tank, but an average strength build. Bilge shots would give a better idea of how the floors (frame to keel connections) are made and how often.

the Linjekrysare with the staggered rivetting is actually a better design (which is why she's still tight after 60 years).

Hope I can post more images after the weekend,

Best regards,

udo

[udo]

Hello again,

I might cross the border to Denmark as well during my stay at the West Coast when I am going to have a look at a Laurin Koster.

Found the following boats:

Guess they will be worthwhile to investigate:

Platgatter-One-off

Sloop

Östersjökryssare

Blue Peter

Any feedback more than welcome,

Udo

[S&S]

After looking at all the varnished hulls, I was beginning to think that it was some Swedish regulation at wood boats must be finished bright

[udo]

Originally Posted by S&S

After looking at all the varnished hulls, I was beginning to think that it was some Swedish regulation at wood boats must be finished bright

hehe, you could be right!

and the search keeps on going! Till I find the right one. Just have to go and visit them all I guess.

Cheers,

udo

[udo]

I think it's going to be this one:

I did have a look, have a look yourself:

click on the link to see the gallery:

http://dev.colourcertainty.co.uk/01I...n_Koster-View/



Udo

[anglooff]

Dear Udo,

So you are leaning towards the Laurins koster. I had a quick look at the picture gallery and from first glance it seems in overall very good condition. What was your impression? Did you sail? what's her statistics ..Age, beam, weight? Did you have someone with you who knows wood boats and their flaws. From the photos....which never are sufficients... she seems well cared for and and in good condition. What areas/aspects concerned you more. How long has it been on the market? How does it compare re price to other wood carvel type in Sweden? What are the condition/ make /year of engine, sails etc. Which inside photo relates to photo no 9. Was there much movement around this area?

I must go but will look forward to reading update and perhaps S&S comments tomorrow.

Best regards

Alan

[udo]

Hi Alan,

To be honest, the boat is in top condition. It was visible that, at some stage in the past, water came in via the deck because there is some discolouration on on the beams supporting the deck, but they were all still healthy. The owner works for this company: Arcona Yachts AB SWEDEN - Official homesite He is himself one of the people building these boats. And that was visible in how he placed everywhere a complete new deck of 2 layers of 9 mm (total 18mm) marine plywood with on top of that 2 layers of epoxy coating and anti-slip painting. All floors in the cockpit renewed as well, and he did not use the cheapest materials here either.

Anyway checked the whole boat and never came across a wooden boat in this condition!

The boat was for a while on the market, but what I think, what could have put people off is the very basic equipment: no electricity, just 1 battery for the engine. No roll fok, no lazy jacks, no electronic navigation equipment and so on.

And I think, the engine might be the very weak point. It runs OK, but it is a petrol, not diesel. Advantage: only 65 kg, so easy to remove.

But the sails are actually OK, around 9 years old. and all looked clean.

Price? In comparison to anything else in Sweden? I did see one of exacty the same type, little bit cheaper but in horrible conditon. + These boats sell for over double the price in the Netherlands and maybe even more in the United Kingdom!

Here is the spec:

Boat type Sailboat Koster S 25 - S -54
LOA: 8,3 m
WL: 7,9 m
Beam: 2,5 m
Draft: 1,35 m
Ton: 3,2 t
(Keel: 1,6 kg Iron)
Sail Area: 35 m2
Inboard Vire 1991

Udo

[S&S]

Looks good Udo. You shoud pay attention to the chainplates (looks like some seeping there in your photos).
A straightforward fix, but one that needs immedaite attention.