Nautor Swan 38

[JazzyO]

OK, so there is two. My first google page found 2 HR's with delamination problems. Does that prove they are not the quality you think they are? Certainly I will not go and tell on the internet that HR's are not good quality because of 1 lazy internet search. It will take a lot of first-hand experience before I will go and make comments on someone's boat, especially if I haven't even seen it.


Onno

[robert sailor]

The original Baltics were designed by C&C and were built with cored hulls, not sure if they still are but they were for many years. Very performance orientated and at the time was considered every bit as well built as the Swans. Pretty near all boats have cored decks so I can't see why thats an issue in Baltics. High quality boats simply age better and its not unusual to find 30 year old Baltics and Swans that are in beautiful condition.

[Jim Cate]

I, too, love the older Swans... the S&S classics. But in the years after those designs, the oh so high and mighty Swans had osmosis issues of heroic proportions. So, lets not bash Baltics for their decks...

Great boats both, and well above the average production boat.

Jim

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

OK, so there is two. My first google page found 2 HR's with delamination problems. Does that prove they are not the quality you think they are? Certainly I will not go and tell on the internet that HR's are not good quality because of 1 lazy internet search. It will take a lot of first-hand experience before I will go and make comments on someone's boat, especially if I haven't even seen it.


Onno

Ok...This is childish...You have a great boat. Your boat is faster and better than a Swan. Happy now?
"It will take a lot of first-hand experience before I will go and make comments on someone's boat, especially if I haven't even seen it"
Yes...Much like you did when comparing your boat to the Swan.
"Certainly my Baltic 38DP can give her a run for her money".
Both boats have there merits and like Jim Cate said both great boats but all boats have some problems due to the element they're in.
The OP was trying to sell a boat, not open a debate for to to participate in....sail on.

[Yukon Cornelius]

As was mentioned above Baltic was started by Swan employees who broke away from the company, mostly it seems because PG Johansson had a falling out with Ingmar Granholm of Nautor -PG wanted to build lighter boats with balsa cored hulls, and Granholm would't let him. The solid glass hull vs. cored hull debate has been played out here and other places, so I won't get into it, but I think the engineering has proven to be sound.

I think calling Baltics and Swans 'sister ships' is incorrect, as Baltic was clearly striving for something different. There are several Swan clones (“Swan-a-bes” like Avance Yachts) from the era, but Baltic is not one of them.

Anyway, I think this Swan vs. Baltic debate started out with a misaligned comparison, that is, the S&S Swan 38 (phrf 120, 19k lbs.) vs. the Doug Peterson Baltic 38 (phrf 92, 14k lbs.)-very much different boats from different eras. A better comparison would be the S&S Swans of the 70's vs. the early C&C Baltics. I have been on examples of both and I can tell you that the Swans have a much nicer interior than the Baltics. I have not sailed on a C&C Baltic, but I have been on similar C&C designs of the era (under ballasted, rule beating, flat-bottom pounders), and I can assure you I would rather be on an S&S boat.

I will agree however that Baltic really hit their stride with the Doug Peterson 38 and 42. I have been on a Baltic 38. It is a great boat, inside and out. I feel the Swans of that era (the Ron Holland and early Frers boats) sort of struggled to find their place, as Holland was winning races in his light and fast designs, and Nautor was trying to reproduce them (and slowing them down in the process) with their stubborn methods (heavy, solid glass hull, beefy rigs, etc.). I do, however, have to give the edge to Swan here when it comes to the teak decks. Swan eliminated “top-screwing” in the early 80's, having developed a method of gluing them down with only epoxy. Baltic was a few years behind in the process – all of the decks on the 38's and 42's I have seen may be set in epoxy, but they are also top-screwed, which will someday be a massive, massive headache.

I would be interested to hear of anyone's experience with what I would call the “third wave” of Swans and Baltics; that is, the Frers designed Swans of the 90s vs. the Judel-Vroliik Baltics. They seem to be more matured designs at the end of the IOR era, and I don't have any experience sailing on either.

[Celestialsailor]

Excellent post. Thanx Yukon.

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Here she is.

Lovely indeed.

Originally Posted by Scott Berg

Anybody should be thrilled to sail with either... Right... <grin>

Exactly.


Onno

[Hermit]

I have one of the Baltic 42 DP's build under licence in Cape town by Cenmarine in 1987 . Must say the real definition of a blue water boat - a Centurion Tank .
Did the Cape to Rio race on it beginning of the year and also did the Southern ocean return trip from Rio to Capetown - no worse for wear .

As per all boats - you need to keep up with the maintenance and that is the key to a save boat - Had a extensive overhaul last year - keel, P bracket etc. and now the PERKINS 4108 is being refurbed - but otherwise a solid world cruiser - Happy with it .

Any other DP's arround?

[NormanMartin]

First of all: I just can't get the link to work and that is a problem. I do get a screen asking if I want to buy the URL. I do not!

Second: Thanks Yukon. It is hard enough to compare boats of the same era and design concept much less one's from another era and concept. The Swan predates the Baltic by eight years and those were very, very volatile years design-wise.

Finally, I'd love to see the boat details as we are shopping and a Swan 38 is about as big as we'd go.

And, I know, this may be a dead thread but still interested.

Norm on Averisera

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

OK, it's clear now. You've made a call on all Baltics because you heard someone complain about 1. If you are really someone looking for quality I suggest you check them out with an open mind.

It is the first I've heard of such deck problems, and I've seen quite a few Baltics. I've never heard an owner complain about their build quality and I've met about 10 of them in the past 3 years, but I am also very aware of their history and they are highly regarded with cruiser racers in the 1980's and 1990's. That is just a fact, not my rose coloured glasses. Certainly my own boat (30 YO this year) does not have any squeaks, rattles, the teak interior is still beautiful and all the lockers work the way they are supposed to. She is quicker and points higher than modern 45 footers upwind (as my fellow participants of ARC Portugal 2014 will corroborate). The IOR design makes downwind a little slower and more susceptible to rolling (although Doug Peterson's design is much better than most IOR boats), but that is the same for Swans of that age.

All I can say is I will put my Baltic next to ANY Swan of similar age and I guarantee she won't come second.


Onno

Are you sure it's not just an ugly duckling?