NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

[terminalcitygrl]

So we're getting serious about buying a little sailboat. I've read loads of threads opining on the state of the market and the evil of yacht brokers, sellers who are living in la-la land and too emotionally attached, buyers who are low-balling blood suckers taking advantage of poor widows, etc, etc, etc... and we are so NOT looking forward to the buying experience. Yuck.

So NADA prices actually seem reasonable on the boats we are interested in but we feel ridiculous offering less than half of an advertised price. We don't want to engage in ridiculous price drama-rama and we don't want to offend and we don't want to get hosed. We have a very limited budget and live on a fixed income so it is important to us to get this right. This isn't a game to us. The whole thing makes me angry honestly, perhaps not the best attitude going in... What to do? What do you do?

Do people actually offer based on NADA valuations? What sort of experience do people have if/when they do? Surely owners and brokers must have looked at NADA valuations and expect this???

[s/v Jedi]

I would also like to buy for nada but I'm afraid the sellers want some $$$

Okay, I admit, I believe NADA is the bluebook for cars ... are sailboats in there too now?

cheers,
Nick.

[DeepFrz]

Why would you worry about offending a seller? Offer what you think the boat is worth and in your budget range. It will either be accepted, countered or turned down. If countered, just stick to your offer and see what happens. If turned down, look for a different boat and try again. This is a business transaction after all.

[skipmac]

It seems like you are going into the process already decided it will be unpleasant. In my experience, this kind of attitude can bring exactly what you are expecting.

Like the old story about the old man sitting on his porch watching the cars go by on the road in front of his house. One day a car pulls over and the driver asked the old man what the people were like in the town ahead. The old man asked him what the people were like in the town he just left. Why polite and friendly he replied. The old man says, well the people in the next town are just the same.

Next day another car pulls over and the driver asked the old man the same question. The old man asked again, what were the people like in the town you just left. Why mean and spiteful the driver answered. The old man says, well the people in the next town are just the same.

Sure there are some brokers that are worthless or even dishonest, sure some sellers are attached to their boats, etc, etc, etc. But if you run into an unpleasant situation, walk away. There are lots and lots of boats for sale and no reason to get into an unpleasant situation to buy one.

As for NADA and boat value, I would go online and research what similar boats are listing for. Toss out the ones way over and way under the median, toss out the dogs and major project boats and you should get a reasonably good idea of what the real price should be. If you really need to stretch your dollars and have the time then watch the market and wait for a deal. You don't have to rob a widow blind in the process. Let your conscience be your guide.

[terminalcitygrl]

Ah skipmac, this is true! My motivation for posting really. I know I need to adjust my head space/ attitude around this. I want this to be a good, fun experience for us, we are so looking forward to sailing our own boat! Just the getting from here to there part we need some support/ wisdom on. Good story.

I worry about offending everyone DeepFrz! I'm Canadian, it's in my genes I think. ;-)

Thanks for the laugh Nick!

[Celestialsailor]

I took a look at NADA. Then I looked at Yachtworld at my particular vessel. YW averaged $45K. NADA $25K. If you average the two, I would say it's pretty close. Therefore if a seller was asking $45K and you offered $32K and settled on $35K, you have an accord. About 20% off the selling price which is not unheard of.
By the way...you'll notice lurkers on the forum who have been supposedly going to buy a boat for the last 2 years or so. It just doesn't take that long. It's more likely they will never buy, just talk. Like Skipmac says..."Let your conscience be your guide". Do the next right thing and treat others like you would like to be treated.
When I buy a boat...I always talk socially for the first 10-20 minutes. If it's to the owner, I compliment him on his boat. Later we talk skinny.

[cpa]

If I were you, I would try to not let it get under your skin. Buying a boat is perhaps the most enjoyable buying experience in one's life (well, at least mine - LOL).

I would toss NADA in the can and find a broker that can get you print outs from Soldboat.com on the boats you are curious about. Not that Soldboat.com is the end all authority on that sort of information. NADA's prices for sailboats are mostly inaccurate and, in my opinion seem to undervalue the boats. I just hopped on NADA and they quoted the value of a 1980s vintage HR49 at 97k-110k (low-medium retail). The two in N. America on Yacht World are listed at 279k and 325k and, based on what I've seen them go for in the past, I do not believe that those asking prices are out of line.

I would try to find a very honest broker, one that has been around for a long time (no new jacks) and utilize him/her to access the info on Soldboat and to assist you in finding your dream boat.

As for the buying process, I would find the boat of your dreams and offer 75%-80% asking price and negotiate from there. Use the market price on identical models, Soldboat, and even talk to other owners of that model boat as a guide for what the pricing should be. I have seen 50% knocked off in rare fire sale situations, but for the most part I believe the sellers advertise the boat's price in line with the market and add 10-20% for haggle room and broker commission. Also, while I do feel that the majority of the sellers price the boats fairly, the major discrepancy is on the boat's condition. Many sellers that I have dealt with were absolutely BATS@#T crazy regarding the condition of their vessels (specifically, overestimating the condition), but that is usually addressed in the survey and in most cases the seller will make a few more concessions.

I wish you good luck and again have fun.

[speedoo]

OP, assuming you expect to spend more than $15k or so, you will probably want to make your offer subject to survey.. I think many surveyors have access to a database of actual selling prices, which is obviously valuable information to you.

So you might want to look around for the best surveyor in your area, based on real recommendations, and talk to that surveyor about boats that interest you as you think about making offers. An excellent surveyor can be an invaluable asset to a boat buyer.

[Mark424]

Rather than guessing, how do we find out if NADA is correct, or not. and if not, why not. The data is out there in the registration records.

[sww914]

I don't believe that there is very much accurate information available at all. I think that Nada bases their prices in part on new prices adjusted by age, a formula that works on many cars but doesn't work on boats any better than it works on rare sports or luxury cars, just on Fords and Toyotas.
Soldboat.com is almost pure ********. Many many of the boats on there say that they sold for asking price. I don't think that a hammered production boat that was for sale for 3 years sold for the original asking price. The brokers seem to pad the prices A LOT. They are like realtors, no boat ever sold at a discount just like it's never a bad time to buy real estate if you listen to a realtor talk. I know of three instances absolutely for sure that the brokers lied on soldboat.com, I talked to the seller or the buyer later and learned the truth about the price but the broker said it sold for full price to try to keep the market propped up.
The only way, IMO is to immerse yourself in the market until YOU know what boats are worth. There is no spreadsheet that will churn out good numbers for you. It's a feel thing.

[terminalcitygrl]

Originally Posted by Mark424

Rather than guessing, how do we find out if NADA is correct, or not. and if not, why not. The data is out there in the registration records.

I'm pretty sure the NADA site says it's figures are based on actual sales of good condition vessels. Their prices also seem reasonable hence my wondering what other recent buyers are thinking about this.

I get that a boat in extraordinary condition with lots of up-to-date useful gear will command a better price, as it should. My issue is the crazy difference in the prices of the 2 indexes. Finding a reliable source would be helpful....Talking to a good surveyor is great advice - We will definitely do that!

[speedoo]

Originally Posted by sww914

I don't believe that there is very much accurate information available at all. I think that Nada bases their prices in part on new prices adjusted by age, a formula that works on many cars but doesn't work on boats any better than it works on rare sports or luxury cars, just on Fords and Toyotas.
Soldboat.com is almost pure ********. Many many of the boats on there say that they sold for asking price. I don't think that a hammered production boat that was for sale for 3 years sold for the original asking price. The brokers seem to pad the prices A LOT. They are like realtors, no boat ever sold at a discount just like it's never a bad time to buy real estate if you listen to a realtor talk. I know of three instances absolutely for sure that the brokers lied on soldboat.com, I talked to the seller or the buyer later and learned the truth about the price but the broker said it sold for full price to try to keep the market propped up.
The only way, IMO is to immerse yourself in the market until YOU know what boats are worth. There is no spreadsheet that will churn out good numbers for you. It's a feel thing.

I agree completely. Well armed boat buyer is familiar not only with what boats are really worth, but is also able to estimate repairs needed, additional equipment, etc.

[svfinnishline]

Find a good broker to work with you. Behind Yachtworld is a database, accessible to the boat brokers which has the date listed, price listed, current price and sold for values. I kicked tyres for 10 years, and found a broker that would give me this info, I had an excel spreadsheet with the last 5 years of sales history on the boat I ended up buying. So when I found 'the boat' I had all the sales history I needed at the time.

Regardless of the history - make an offer, low ball it and see where the market is, and how keen the seller is. Knowing the how long the boat has been on the market helps. Where to take it from there is up to you. If your broker won't give you this info, switch brokers until you find one that will, and don't accept any less than that in good customer service.

Good luck!

[terminalcitygrl]

Originally Posted by speedoo

I agree completely. Well armed boat buyer is familiar not only with what boats are really worth, but is also able to estimate repairs needed, additional equipment, etc.

Okay. How does one become well armed? OPB is not really an option for us. Reading blogs/ books. Look at a lot of different boats I guess? Other ideas?

[ty.gregory]

[QUOTE=terminalcitygrl;976868]So we're getting serious about buying a little sailboat. I've read loads of threads opining on the state of the market and the evil of yacht brokers, sellers who are living in la-la land and too emotionally attached, buyers who are low-balling blood suckers taking advantage of poor widows, etc, etc, etc... and we are so NOT looking forward to the buying experience. Yuck.


I can't really help you, because I see things exactly as you do. Well, maybe not all the doom and gloom, but the whole paragraph above does read true to me. I read the same material you do it seems. One thing for sure is, there's a whole lot to think about. Ah hell, it's only our life-savings and forseeable future were worried about, right.

Any way, your take on things was well worded... Damn if I don't agree, but I also agree with some of the responses. Know what you're doing--things will probably work out. I truly think I sort of know what I'm doing-- which I think is your point, and from this I can only glean that things will sorta work out for me. Yuck!

I have already chosen a selected few who I am going to PM on this forum when I get close to THE MOMENT of TRUTH, and these people probably know who they are though I have never told them my plans, but it's likely others before me have spotted their expertise and have come to them for advice. I think that's my ace in the hole. I love CF for this reason.