NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Really? Not my experience at all unless the boat is otherwise trashed, wrecked, "project" boat, etc. If you hear about any 25-30 year old boats in halfway decent condition, with a working engine and standing mast that are going to the dump please let me know. Would be happy to even offer you a finder's fee.

Thete have been quite a few being parted out, what size do you need? I know a 30 footer that will probobly go fo 5k, recent 3 cyl yanmar, new main and genoa, new rigging and new profurl. May have been donated by now, been a month or so.

[MarkSF]

Originally Posted by Vasco

If you want to see how ridiculous NADA is just try pricing a sailboat on their site. Apparently they use some arbitrary "list" price and then you have to tick off the "extras" most of which apply to power boats and as far as cruising boats go not much that applies. Then they give you a depreciated price on these "extras". The whole thing makes little sense.

It works for cars and it might work for newer "commodity" boats but for older sailboats it's useless.

So when I bought my boat the dealer gave me a Soldboats printout of the last 2 years data - actual selling prices for the last 10 boats sold.

I've heard various insinuations now about the accuracy of this data. So my question is : are these the actual selling prices, or not?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

what size do you need?

I don't think I "need" any more boats at all. If you count dinghies I already have four.

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I know a 30 footer that will probobly go fo 5k

Wasn't really wanting to buy another boat (see comment above) but if there are perfectly good boats being thrown away figure I would take them free just as a public service to keep them out of the landfills.

[MarkSF]

Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl

So we're getting serious about buying a little sailboat. I've read loads of threads opining on the state of the market and the evil of yacht brokers, sellers who are living in la-la land and too emotionally attached, buyers who are low-balling blood suckers taking advantage of poor widows, etc, etc, etc... and we are so NOT looking forward to the buying experience. Yuck.

So NADA prices actually seem reasonable on the boats we are interested in but we feel ridiculous offering less than half of an advertised price. We don't want to engage in ridiculous price drama-rama and we don't want to offend and we don't want to get hosed. We have a very limited budget and live on a fixed income so it is important to us to get this right. This isn't a game to us. The whole thing makes me angry honestly, perhaps not the best attitude going in... What to do? What do you do?

Do people actually offer based on NADA valuations? What sort of experience do people have if/when they do? Surely owners and brokers must have looked at NADA valuations and expect this???

The best guide to prices is to look at similar boats on Yachtworld. Ignore the outliers and figure out an average asking price. I figured out from the Soldboats data on my model that the average selling price was 85% of what was being asked for mine.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

NADA is close for newer boats. Most boats over 25 or 30 years old will never sell and will be cut up a taken to the dump. Base your offers accordingly.

While there are some older boats I would like to see cut up and hauled off, I think your statement may be a little harsh and not to realistic.
I feel that too many boats were pumped out in the 70's and 80's and we're feeling the effects now, of a glut of boats on the market. It has even managed to push slip prices up.

[konakoma]

You should heed the advice from svfinnishline and find a good broker. You are correct about the vast majority being lying sleeze (and they collectively make 20% of the money). You need one of the top good ones who make most of the money. Ask around, spend time doing research. Joining a club like SSCA will help immensely, as you will meet people who have owned all types and models, and many will take you sailing to try them on for size. We just spent 1 1/2 years looking and traveling until we bought-looked into 50+, went and saw 15, put offers in on 4 and bought 1, just like a house. The other key is a good marine surveyor. Make sure you hire one most brokers hate but buyers recommend. Good luck.

[cpa]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Really? Not my experience at all unless the boat is otherwise trashed, wrecked, "project" boat, etc. If you hear about any 25-30 year old boats in halfway decent condition, with a working engine and standing mast that are going to the dump please let me know. Would be happy to even offer you a finder's fee.

Yeah, can I be second in line?

[terminalcitygrl]

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and experiences so far. This has been a super helpful read. I was offering thanks to everyone individually because I appreciate the time you all spend contributing but I have now given "too much thanks in the last 24 hours" so am offering my blanket thanks here!

[Pblais]

4. Get the absolute best surveyor you can find, even if you have to fly the surveyor in. The survey will drive the actual selling price.

I would strongly disagree. The survey is to allow you to purchase insurance and / or secure a loan and for the most part and it should be a make or break the deal and not open a new negotiation. Making a firm offer then trying to renegotiate is a poor position to be in. Write the offer you mean to settle for or bail if the survey is not to your liking for any reason is the way to look at the process. You can walk any time you want! Force yourself to negotiate up front and not weasel out of a deal you made in good faith. Any deal you can't get up front is because you wrote a poor offer. I make my offer with that said up front. I say this is a cash offer and the survey may be my option to back out but it's still my offer if I accept the survey.

Any survey that comes up too short means the boat is not acceptable and lowering the price usually is a poor investment. You can't get back enough money to pay the costs is usually the end result. It's always better to walk away from a bad survey. You should expect a few warts and some might be wrong. No surveyor is that good. Just get a surveyor you have chatted with and decide you want to work with them. During the survey they will tell you things not in the report. This is the good and best part of the survey process so you would be a fool not to show up in person. The written report is for the bank and insurance company and not really for you. The little things you'll want to know when you buy the boat is the stuff you'll learn.

You pay for the survey and the haul no matter what. Most surveyors will let you pull the plug early for a discount. That is the only option to negotiate after the offer. If the survey is going poorly paying for the survey so you can go back at the owner is usually not worth the time and you would save more money walking.

Another worse case you agree to settle if the owner does a long list of things. Now you really are the hostage. Assume you'll fix all the warts yourself under your control and your schedule not someone else.

Always write offers no strings attached if you are sure of the offer. If you are not sure then you didn't do all your homework. With a cash offer no strings attached and the survey is accept or reject the boat you can get a seller to move a little on any sale because you did the homework. Acting serious tends convey you are serious. Sellers like serious buyers the best. Give the seller all the seriousness you can as it costs you nothing! Being open is easier than anything else. You lay down the cards and it shows you did your homework. Prove you are not a jerk and a nice person.

Surveys are never really that good. They miss a lot of little things it will take you 9 months to find. They do find most of the big stuff but they only look for a half a day so expect that level of survey. They don't have xray vision and they don't operate everything fully. You don't need to fly in a surveyor unless you are spending a few million dollars.

[David M]

I think there are too many variables and too few examples with boats for something like NADA to work very well. Cars have far fewer variables plus there are far more cars with which to get examples of selling prices. So something like KBB does work.

A boat is worth what someone is willing to pay for that particular boat. There is no other definition of its value.

[Pblais]

I think there are too many variables and too few examples with boats for something like NADA to work very well.

NADA makes money from the insurance and banking industry. When you look at "all" boats the results are just a numbers game. Insurance and loans are a numbers game too and NADA helps those industries with what they do and get paid for it.

It's a mistake to think they can help you purchase a boat. They may give a clue as to what you could expect for a loan or an insurance value. You may require a loan and a policy so in that sense they can be used to help you with those "cost" items because that is what the companies will use. It really has nothing to do with what one boat is worth as a buyer or as a seller.

Each boat is very unique and even within the brand and model there is great variation that you can see for yourself in the market place. It's why I stress only considering boats you have personally seen and why I feel buyers brokers are a poor way to buy a boat.

The "hunt" for the right boat needs shoe leather applied! You need that time and energy expended to get your head right. Conversations with a partner after viewing a boat is the process of coming together about what you really like and not what you thought you liked before. It seeks to establish "value to you"! It sets the limits of what you can afford and expect. These are about you and not about the boats. The problem is understanding yourself. For everyone there can be the right boat you'll like. It really is more about you than the boat. Boats are what they are but people are complicated. We learn and we grow.

Looking at boats teaches you to see more about boats and think more about what you see means to you. After a while you can size a boat up pretty quick and can learn to see things you could never have noticed before.

[CarinaPDX]

There has long been antagonism between brokers and surveyors. Mostly I think this is a matter of surveyors highlighting problems that break deals, but there is also an issue of valuations. There is a question as to whether a surveyor should make recommendations regarding the selling price, or should stick to the condition of the boat. Normally a survey is called for after the deal is agreed, so the surveyor is finding fault and perhaps estimating an approximate cost to repair, and advising on continuing the purchase. In my experience they tend to avoid involvement in the negotiation, otherwise the brokers may cry foul. A good survey is essential, and a good surveyor might help point in the right direction regarding boat choice, but don't count on a lot of help regarding price. OTOH you can ask if he can give a value for insurance purposes that is equal to the agreed price, which is of some use but not an accurate market valuation.

As for brokers, there are two where I am located. One is a saint, and I consider absolutely trustworthy, the other a sinner whom I wouldn't trust for any reason. As a buyer there really isn't much choice if you want a particular boat - the broker is hired and paid for by the seller. Just keep in mind he is obligated to make the best deal for the seller, so don't confide in him your thinking about price or negotiating strategy. This sounds pretty obvious, but a lot of folks seem not to get it.

Greg

[ArtM]

This is derived from a method I've proposed in the past for purchasing cheap cars:

1) Start with the amount of money you have to spend on your boat
2) Go out and look for the best boats that you think you might be able to buy at that price (best being subjective and personal to you, of course
3) Bid on the boats that are on the top of your list. If declined, and further negotations fail, work your way down that list.

If it works as intended, you will have purchased the best boat you could for the money

This is of course contrasted to the opposite method, which is attempting to determine the least amount of money for which you could have bought a boat. I think the other method will be easier, especially if you want a smaller boat, which are highly commoditized compared to larger cruising yachts.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Pblais

Looking at boats teaches you to see more about boats and think more about what you see means to you. After a while you can size a boat up pretty quick and can learn to see things you could never have noticed before.

The rest of the post is very worthwhile advice .....but for anyone starting the boat buying / owning escapade the above snippet is worth printing out and sellotaping to forehead .

[zeehag]

some older than 30 yr old boats can still pull up the 100k usd they are being asked for in sales....mebbe that generalization should be stuffed......