Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-06-2012, 11:31   #31
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

I really do not know. I liked buying our boat and I would like to buy another!

I think the buying time was fun when compared with all the horror that followed - the running costs, the maintenance chores, insurance, scratches, varnishing, diesel mechanics, leaks and OSMOSIS !!!

;-)

In our case, we looked up the asking prices of the model we wanted, we rejected the outrageously expensive ones then went to have a look at our best bets. We actually bought the first boat and we never looked back twice!

We did not use brokers nor surveyors. Maybe this explains why why had such a smooth deal and ended up with such a great ship!

To sum up, make YOUR offer on the boat you want and see what happens. No need to use NADA, Yachtworld or any other benchmark - offer what you believe the boat is worth for you and negotiate the deal from this point.

b.
__________________

__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-06-2012, 13:18   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,156
Re: NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

Quote:
Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl View Post
Okay. How does one become well armed? OPB is not really an option for us. Reading blogs/ books. Look at a lot of different boats I guess? Other ideas?
Good question. Here'a too long answer, IMO:
1. Make some decisions about: a) how you will be using the boat (daysailing, coastal cruising, offshore sailing, other). Be as specific as possible, for example, of it's coastal cruising will your trips be mostly long weekends or will you take month long cruises or longer?
b) how much are you willing to spend on purchase and initial repairs, etc. Are you able and patient enough to take on a project boat or do you need a boat that is 90% ready to go?
c) How big does the boat need to be? Obviously this will primarily be a function of how it will be used and how many people will be aboard for cruising, if applicable.. But for long duration coastal cruising and offshore sailing, storage and comfort at sea become important as well.
After these decisions are made, your target group of boats types should be apparent. Next:

2. Start researching these targets groups of boats to learn which ones are a) affordable and b) of good enough quality to meet your needs. This will narrow your list of target boats a lot more. (my definition of affordability is yachtworld average asking price, less 10-20%)

3. By this time you should have a small enough group of boats to start getting a better feel for actual selling prices. Lots of good advice in this thread for doing that.

4. Inquire about specific boats. Go see the ones you like best, try to get a feel for how negotiable the asking prices are, and most importantly get an initial assessment of the condition of each boat.. By now you should have a list of the 2 or 3 most desirable, and you can discuss each one with the surveyor you have identified as your partner in this venture. (I see no reason to pay a buyer's broker, when you are going to pay a surveyor anyway.) He/she should be able to provide a listing of actual selling prices of these boats, and this will give you an idea of a desired purchase price for each boat, and additional inquiries to the broker or seller will tell you whether these prices are achievable..

5. If you can realistically see a purchase price close to your desired price, it's time to conduct your mini-survey of that boat, using this:

Amazon.com: Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual: Including Inspecting the Aging Sailboat, Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair, Sailboat Refinishing, Sailbo (9780071462846): Don Casey: Books

Specifically the section entitled "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" which can be purchased as a seperate book, but if you are going to be a serious sailboat owner, the complete book is essential IMO.

The purpose of this mini survey is to get to know the boat better in order to make sure you want to make an offer and have your surveyor actually perform a full survey. If you make an offer, it will be subject to survey, and it will be an offer you are very comfortable with, since you now know the boat that much better.. If you find one or more major problems in your mini survey, it may be time to drop that boat from your list, depending on whether the seller might lower the price further or if discussions with your surveyor lead you to believe the problem is not a deal breaker.

6. If your initial offer and subsequent negotiation leads to an acceptable purchase price, have the survey done, with you in attendance. A survey has to be done both out of the water and in a sea trial that includes a test of all major systems, obviously including the engine. By the end of the survey, you should have a very good idea of the boat's real condition, a list of surveyor recommendations and possibly a basis for further reducing the purchase price. And always be ready to walk away, even if you have paid the surveyor, etc., if the boat is simply unacceptable or the seller won't agree to a reasonable adjusted offer.. It's a buyer's market and you can always find another boat at a reasonable price.. And your surveyor can terminate the survey if appropriate, to reduce your cost, or agree to a reduced price on the next survey.

7. Eventually, you will get your boat at your price. Then the $$$ fun really begins!
__________________

__________________
speedoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-06-2012, 14:06   #33
Registered User
 
sailpower's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 784
Re: NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
funny how i is whenye put a boat for sale with a brokerage they immediately consult nada for pricing of it---but when buying, they toss it (nada) out the window and try to sell a neglected pos for way inflated pricing.... go figger.

this is from personal experience and observation.
I know lots of brokers on the East Coast and NONE of them use NADA for any purpose. BUC use has also gone way down. Lots of brokers have bailed on BUC membership and rely on sites like YachtWorld. Brokers have their own part on YW called Boat Wizard where they have access to additional information that doesn't appear on YW.

Z, maybe your experience is a West Coast thing?

To the OP; your budget will have a lot to to do with whether or not you use a broker. Do you have an idea of where you want to be on price?
__________________
sailpower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-06-2012, 15:34   #34
Registered User
 
LostAtSea2011's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 204
I just went thru this recently on a purchase . I was financing and every bank I talked to were using NADA and would only loan on what NADA said. They wouldn't even except a survey and if the boat wasn't listed on NADA they wouldn't do the loan.

From now on when I am interested in a particular boat I check NADA first and base my offer on that. Some boat are close and some are waaay off.
__________________
LostAtSea2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-06-2012, 15:41   #35
Registered User
 
Doodles's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Virginia, USA & Krabi, Thailand
Boat: Wauquiez Pretorien 35; Nordica 16
Posts: 2,810
Images: 1
Re: NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

I spoke with a major marine finance company last week and was told they use the surveyor's fair market value for loans. I think I would stay away from conventional banks for boat loans.
__________________
Mundis Ex Igne Factus Est
Doodles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2012, 01:10   #36
JRM
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Santa Barbara
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 416
Images: 2
Re: NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

I too ranted and raved about NADA and BUC, and yesterday (go figure) we finished signing all the papers and took posession of our new (to us) boat. And the purchase price was exactly $1000 different than the BUC value. There wasn't a NADA price listed.

Having just been through the process and navigated it sucessfully for the second time, here's my advice. Get out and start looking at boats. I looked at everything even remotely close to my price range from San Diego to San Francisco. Even stuff I wasn't sure I was interested in. It helped to see lots of different boats, each with different things I liked and disliked. We procured a starter boat, a Catalina 30, to learn and make mistakes on, and find out whether it was for us as a family unit. I'd advise that route as well.

Rather than try and find a specific make or model of boat, the Admiral and I sat down (on the advice of our broker) and made a list of attributes (features) that we needed, wanted, wanted to avoid, and needed to avoid. Then we prioritized the lists. Often, things in the "wanted" section turned out to be mutually exclusive, so we had many great discussions about what we wanted to do and how we wanted to use the boat. We looked at full keels, fin keels, cut aways, centerboards, everything. Sloop, cutter, ketch, and a yawl. Modern production boats in all flavors to classics. Each one was compared against the lists.

In the end we went with an older pre-blister Valiant 40. It scratched all the need itches, about half of the wants, a few of the want to avoids, and none of the need to avoids. But beyond that, it just speaks to us. For completely different reasons. I read a bunch of books, and then had the wife read a few. A regular theme is that if you want to really participate as a couple you need to involve both parties in the decisions. It is sooo true. I knew it was all going to work out when, while inspecting a boat a few months ago, I came down into the salon from crawling in the lazarette and she was just sitting, staring off into space. She was imagining herself, and our family, cruising that boat. She's only really done that in two boats, and we now own the second one.

My last piece of advice is to not look for a deal and start looking for a boat. The boat we just bought was the first one where I said, "I don't want a great deal, I just want the boat." A boat's value is the intersection between what you're willing to pay and what the seller is willing to take. You're not going to find that in any list. The only way to find it is to suffer through making offers. Yes, the majority of the stuff on the market is way overpriced with unrealistic sellers. It's almost as frustrating as trying to divine the true condition from the description. But just when you're ready to give up you'll find one and it will all work out.

JRM

-- unless you are trying to finance a used boat. then all bets are off, and who knows what magic hat they pull values from. personally, after my experiences with the "marine lending" industry, I think the lot of them should spend a little quality time with the business end of a cattle prod...
__________________
JRM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2012, 01:24   #37
Registered User
 
Butler's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Boat: Pearson 281
Posts: 678
Images: 18
Re: NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

" buying a little sailboat". Reason enough to avoid NADA and dealers "I've read loads of threads opining on the state of the market and the evil of yacht brokers, sellers who are living in la-la land and too emotionally attached, buyers who are low-balling blood suckers taking advantage of poor widows, etc, etc, etc..." all the more reason for enjoying the proccess "we feel ridiculous offering less than half of an advertised price." Why? Offering half the value in cash in a buyers market doesn't make somebody ridiculous "We don't want to engage in ridiculous ??? price drama-rama" ... again, part of the fun "and we don't want to offend" Understandable, there is a way to do this minimizing offence "and we don't want to get hosed". Understandable and as you have figured knowledge is power. The problem is that the most valuable knowledge is real experience... as much as you can bring to the shopping or as much as you can borrow from dragging an experienced boating aquaintence along. "We have a very limited budget and live on a fixed income" my situation as well and the best saying I've heard comes in a statement; maybe you can afford to buy it, but can you afford to keep it? "so it is important to us to get this right." You won't get it entirely right is my bet but you can minimize the big mistakes that will ruin ownership. I already figure that you'll be avoiding that problem. "This isn't a game to us." aaw relax "What to do? What do you do?" Have fun and take your time... the zen of boat buying.

I'm hope this has been just the tiniest bit useful and hope it has not offended. Good luck.
__________________
Butler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2012, 01:34   #38
Senior Cruiser
 
SkiprJohn's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kea'au, Big Island, Hawaii
Boat: Cascade, Sloop, 42 - "Casual"
Posts: 14,192
Re: NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

This is good advice:

"Be polite, be respectful, but offer whatever you want. It's your money. You will either agree or you won't. If you don't, just keep looking."

Good advice too is that anything you buy is only worth what you are willing to pay for it.

Once you've done all your research and decided on what you are willing to pay for a particular boat you approach the owner or owner's broker and say to them that you know they are asking more and you don't want to insult them but you are only able to offer $______ contingent on a survey.

Good luck!

kind regards,
__________________
John
SkiprJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2012, 06:40   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Living aboard and cruising
Boat: Island Packet 40
Posts: 276
Images: 1
BUC was supported by brokers before Soldboats and used to be the go to source. In my recent experience it has been fairly close. Sold boats is fed by the broker and from what I hear some brokers are not entirely honest 100%of the time. I looked at financing my last purchase and the lenders seemed to use BUC value as the basis for loan value. Lenders and insurance companies would consider value nowhere near Soldboats in my experience. NADA is completely out of touch!

Also, I agree that a surveyor is key. Lenders and insurance place the most value on their estimate of value.

Buying again, I would use Soldboats and BUC, and lean towards the BUC value.
__________________
Smooth seas never made an experienced sailor.

Bill
CaptainBW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2012, 06:45   #40
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,060
Re: NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

Quote:
Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl View Post
So we're getting serious about buying a little sailboat. I've read loads of threads opining on the state of the market and the evil of yacht brokers, sellers who are living in la-la land and too emotionally attached, buyers who are low-balling blood suckers taking advantage of poor widows, etc, etc, etc... and we are so NOT looking forward to the buying experience. Yuck.

So NADA prices actually seem reasonable on the boats we are interested in but we feel ridiculous offering less than half of an advertised price. We don't want to engage in ridiculous price drama-rama and we don't want to offend and we don't want to get hosed. We have a very limited budget and live on a fixed income so it is important to us to get this right. This isn't a game to us. The whole thing makes me angry honestly, perhaps not the best attitude going in... What to do? What do you do?

Do people actually offer based on NADA valuations? What sort of experience do people have if/when they do? Surely owners and brokers must have looked at NADA valuations and expect this???
NADA for boats is about as accurate as Bernie Madoff's accounting practices..

The only guide that is even close to being in the ball park is Soldboats.com which is a division of Yacthworld.com and a paid service for brokers. BUC can be closer than NADA but I find many of their prices to be fairly off the mark as brokers have moved over to Soldboats. Ask your broker for some Soldboats.com comps and they'll gladly print them out for you...

In the end the boat is only worth what you are;

A) willing to pay

and

B) what the owner is willing to sell for.
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2012, 06:57   #41
Senior Cruiser
 
Vasco's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Toronto
Boat: CS36Merlin, "La Belle Aurore" Ben393 "Breathless"
Posts: 7,138
Re: NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

If you want to see how ridiculous NADA is just try pricing a sailboat on their site. Apparently they use some arbitrary "list" price and then you have to tick off the "extras" most of which apply to power boats and as far as cruising boats go not much that applies. Then they give you a depreciated price on these "extras". The whole thing makes little sense.
__________________
Rick I
Toronto in summer, Bahamas in winter.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beneteau393/
Vasco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2012, 08:09   #42
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butler View Post
" buying a little sailboat". Reason enough to avoid NADA and dealers "I've read loads of threads opining on the state of the market and the evil of yacht brokers, sellers who are living in la-la land and too emotionally attached, buyers who are low-balling blood suckers taking advantage of poor widows, etc, etc, etc..." all the more reason for enjoying the proccess "we feel ridiculous offering less than half of an advertised price." Why? Offering half the value in cash in a buyers market doesn't make somebody ridiculous "We don't want to engage in ridiculous ??? price drama-rama" ... again, part of the fun "and we don't want to offend" Understandable, there is a way to do this minimizing offence "and we don't want to get hosed". Understandable and as you have figured knowledge is power. The problem is that the most valuable knowledge is real experience... as much as you can bring to the shopping or as much as you can borrow from dragging an experienced boating aquaintence along. "We have a very limited budget and live on a fixed income" my situation as well and the best saying I've heard comes in a statement; maybe you can afford to buy it, but can you afford to keep it? "so it is important to us to get this right." You won't get it entirely right is my bet but you can minimize the big mistakes that will ruin ownership. I already figure that you'll be avoiding that problem. "This isn't a game to us." aaw relax "What to do? What do you do?" Have fun and take your time... the zen of boat buying.

I'm hope this has been just the tiniest bit useful and hope it has not offended. Good luck.

This should be cast is bronze and handed out to each and every new person who posts "Looking for a boat...what do I do"? You did it right. Started on a smaller boat you could flip for what you paid for it, to see if the life-style was for you and your family. Didn't spend a lot of time trying to find the absolute cheapest boat but the one that fit your needs. I have no doubt, using this approach in your voyaging that you will have a wonderful time with your family. Good job...
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2012, 09:14   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Easton, MD
Boat: Catalina 22 Capri
Posts: 1,017
Re: NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

NADA is close for newer boats. Most boats over 25 or 30 years old will never sell and will be cut up a taken to the dump. Base your offers accordingly.
__________________
kmacdonald is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2012, 09:44   #44
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,363
Re: NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

I suppoze nada might give you some vague idea, but frankly its bs. Try getting "average trade in" or try paying "retail" at a car lot! Ha ha
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2012, 10:09   #45
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,379
Re: NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmacdonald View Post
NADA is close for newer boats. Most boats over 25 or 30 years old will never sell and will be cut up a taken to the dump. Base your offers accordingly.
Really? Not my experience at all unless the boat is otherwise trashed, wrecked, "project" boat, etc. If you hear about any 25-30 year old boats in halfway decent condition, with a working engine and standing mast that are going to the dump please let me know. Would be happy to even offer you a finder's fee.
__________________

__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
nada

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:27.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.