NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

[avb3]

When NADA starts writing checks for boats, then you can start trusting the values purported to be there.

There are just to many variables and not enough boats reported sold to NADA for them to have a clue what values are.

[Dulcesuenos]

I have recently fund there is a huge discrepancy between BUc and NADA values and real world boat prices. Both if these use a depreciating yearly model while real world prices are much higher. If u find a boat that is desirable and even close to buc or nada buy it!!! Example. Seawind 1000 gives average good retail of only 109k. Realworld prices range from 225000. To 120. Due to the boats notoriety and the comp prices a lender would finance this with only 10-20% down. At the low end price. You would need half down for the 200k one. A 1997 endeavourcat 34 we liked had a BUC and nada of only 79995. Owner asking 119. Boat sold new 15 years ago for 139k. Due to all the comp sales being higher than BUC. The lenders would have loaned over 80k on this boat. And the boat will sell.lenders look at comp asking and comp selling values and BUC values to determine what they loan. And a boats history and popularity.

[Dockhead]

Listen, spending tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars in one pop is not something most people do very often. It should be fun, not stressful!

Be polite, be respectful, but offer whatever you want. It's your money. You will either agree or you won't. If you don't, just keep looking.

That being said, of course, it's really hard with boats to know what they are really worth. I would throw NADA in the trash. Soldboats.com is good if you take it with a grain (or a box) of salt -- see the previous comments. Soldboats.com is particularly useful to give you the upper limits of what people might pay -- not the lower, which are mostly not reported. You can get a subscription to it for money -- I used it when I was buying my boat.

Some boats -- some types of boats in some markets -- are really offered for firm prices. That's what I found -- to my surprise -- buying a fairly high-end boat in the UK in 2009, despite the financial crisis! It's a question of supply and demand. The difference between boats and cars and indeed houses is that sellers of boats are more often willing to wait up to years to get their price. They often don't need to sell in order to move. They can be irrationally stubborn, and as someone wrote above, some boat owners have completely unrealistic ideas about the condition of their boats.

In some sectors and markets there are many more boats for sale than there are buyers, and everything moves slowly. Here you might find someone who will be glad to get 50 cents on the dollar and get it over with. But you might get old and die waiting for such a bargain. It's up to you, and depends on a lot of things, like what kind of boat, where, and how much time you have.

I paid full asking price for my boat, and have never regretted it for a minute (for one thing, the asking price was extremely reasonable to start with). But YMMV, to say the least.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl

I'm pretty sure the NADA site says it's figures are based on actual sales of good condition vessels. Their prices also seem reasonable hence my wondering what other recent buyers are thinking about this.

I get that a boat in extraordinary condition with lots of up-to-date useful gear will command a better price, as it should. My issue is the crazy difference in the prices of the 2 indexes. Finding a reliable source would be helpful....Talking to a good surveyor is great advice - We will definitely do that!

The few prices I saw listed around 10 years ago in NADA didn't seem to make any sense. I was looking at older boats. NADA said a Cal 40 was worth $17,000. Nobody sold a Cal 40 anywhere near that price.

NADA also didn't work for Honda cars in the Seattle area either. You'd get laughed at if you tried to offer what NADA said it was worth.

John

[CarinaPDX]

Boy do I sympathize with the OP! It is exactly my feeling about buying a new car, and for exactly the same reason - asymmetry of knowledge. As in other markets, like real estate, it is in the brokers' interest to flatter the values, which he is in a good position to know. Thus the inflated reported sale prices: what broker wants to admit he didn't get good money for a sale, and help move the market down as well? I think it is probably impossible to know as an occasional buyer what is the lower end of the market. But it should suffice to evaluate a boat, relative to other boats available, and determine what price it would be worth to you, and then not worry about whether it was the lowest possible price.

The really good prices I have run across were the result of a very savvy buyer who wasn't too particular about which boat he got, and was happy to make low offers for as long as it took to find a desperate buyer. That doesn't sound like you (or me for that matter). So do it however you feel comfortable. I would suggest finding a boat you like, being asked at a price near to what you can afford, take a look and after seeing her, if you want to buy her decide on an offer then. And until that time, try not to stress. If, in the process, you meet the seller you may find that it becomes a very pleasant experience.

A couple bought a sistership of mine, built by friends, from the second owner. Once in contact they developed a close friendship. It became a standing joke that they offered a lifetime warranty, as the original owner continued to be helpful. These kinds of things happen often, so always consider the possibility of something really good coming out of the experience as well.

Greg

[Pblais]

I'm pretty sure the NADA site says it's figures are based on actual sales of good condition vessels. Their prices also seem reasonable hence my wondering what other recent buyers are thinking about this.

NADA is what it is and the main issue is you are just one buyer buying one boat. Whatever you buy won't matter to the book value of anything or move the NADA numbers. "You ain't buying them all!" In a one sale situation (what fool would buy two) it's not about book value.

Back up in the posts you mentioned getting your "head right". That would be number 1. It's what gets buyers and sellers in trouble when they don't.

The best way to get the best price is to have alternatives you have checked out. Knowing there is another boat to offer takes the emotion out of buying the first one you want. If you make a list of real boats you have walked on and seen in person and that you like it helps. Note the requirements as there can be no exceptions., Boats you never walked do not count and are never on the list. The process will get your head right!

Once you have the list rank them by quality and throw away the bottom boat on the list. In any list of boats you make you always buy the best one motivated by the second best one. Let someone else buy the second best boat is the way to get the right boat. You'll save more money later on too.

Walking docks and looking at boats is the best process to get your head right. Being active in the process makes you feel better and you need to make it a fun time too. We all have a budget but what you pay up front for the boat is no where near the last and you'll spend a good chunk of change the day after you buy it and before it really is ready. It's as true with brand new boats as it is with used boats.

You are not falling in love - just buying a boat. You fall in love after the wedding when it comes to boats and not before. All the horror stories you have heard are all true but in most cases the people didn't have their heads right nor reasonable expectations. It's a problem that is out there with people that are not buying boats too. You can only get your own head right. Walking away is often the best offer. There are boats listed that can't be sold to people with their heads right. It's the way it is. NADA knows nothing about the boats that have not sold or why.

For the very top boats in your list meeting owners builds trust. Many negotiations are completed based on trust between the parties. They often feel more comfortable before they sign the papers when there is a better trust between them. After you get that far the broker is supposed to help you do the final closing properly. You should not have expectations about brokers. Only 20% of them sell 80% of all boats. You only want one good boat!

[David_Old_Jersey]

I only buy something based on it's value to me - not to someone else, whether that be a Broker, a Vendor or someone peddling lists of "secret" sale prices (yeah, right!). The only exception to that is where a secret list affects the value others can borrow for the item as it does affect the market value by shrinking the potential market (it don't matter whether that value figure is nonsense or not as no loan = no sale).

That value I put on an item may be less than to others - but it can also be more!

Not to say that I always get it right - but always prepared to suck it up.

The "trick" is to have a good understanding of the item concerned and the market yourself....... otherwise just relying on luck (or others - IMO the same thing). For a big ticket item I would always go the route of relying on myself - even if less convenient by having to educate myself......short anwer is if "you" don't know what an item is worth in the market and to yourself (not always the same), then why are you writing a cheque for it.

With boats you will learn everything about your boat (the good, the bad - and the "I wish I had known that before buying" .....and the costs involved, including for fixes) sooner or later.......IMO just makes sense to learn as much of that before writing the cheque. Time is money - how much of either you use is a personal decision.

But, as said already, the boat buying process should be fun (even if it does contain a bit of stress at times and a fair bit of pondering!). And if at the end of the process the Vendor does not send you Xmas cards (or vice verce!) - then suck it up .

[tamicatana]

I'm in contract, right now. Our experience:

1. Educate yourself on the boat and its values. If you see a boat you like, do a Google search on not only the boat (boat brand, but also the individual boat by name etc) but also on the owner. You'd be surprised what you find... we found all sorts of blogs these boat owners had hung out there with all sorts of tidbits about things that had happened to them and their boats that the owners didn't share initially.

2. Get yourself a trustworthy buyer's broker for yourself. This person will be very helpful in achieving (1.) because he or she can access the 'actual purchase price' lists. This may vary by country, but is true for the US

3. This is a business transaction. You offer what you feel the boat is worth, regardless of asking price. All they can do is say 'no.' The cult of 'offense' is put forth by listing brokers and sellers in the hopes of driving prices higher, and it's abject merde. You're in the business of paying the lowest possible price, the seller is in the business of getting the highest possible price, and that's all there is to it.

4. Get the absolute best surveyor you can find, even if you have to fly the surveyor in. The survey will drive the actual selling price. If the surveyor finds the actual value lower than your offer, you have evidence to lower your price, and in the obverse, the buyer has evidence for a higher price than your offer.

Them's my 'speriences, other mileages may vary

[svfinnishline]

As I said - get the sales history of the model(s) you are interested in and take it from there. All the data is available to the brokers - date listed, price originally listed, current asking price (if its still on the market) and sold for price (if it has sold).

If the broker won't give you a 5 year sales history of the model you are interested in - find another broker. Don't listen to all the negative crap - if its what you want to do, you can feel good about buying a boat and you don't have to feel like a victim. Nobody is going to take your money unless you ask them to - its easy if you are well informed and theres no reason not to be.

[Snore]

While some may feel NADA prices are inaccurate, relying on YW is like asking the fox to guard the hen house. Brokers have a vested interest in inflating the price of boats. My boat appears to have sold for the asking price...that did not happen!

For several reasons I financed a small portion of my boat. The lender based their loan-to-value analysis on NADA. Even if you are not going to finance your purchase, it would be worth your time to ask some lenders what they use as a basis. Space Coast uses a dealer version of NADA that was slightly higher than the one on-line.

Bill

[DSDman]

NADA and BUC book value seems to be proportionally accurate in relation to the age of the vessle. It makes sense because the older the boat the more variables are introduced into the equation. Having just gone through this entire exercise, in March, I can understand your concern. 1. My experience is that banks will loan you way more than a boat might be worth. 2. Sellers are aiming for the moon hoping to meet someone just like you. 3. Finding a broker that has a Yachtworld account and will share the historical data on boats that have actually sold is key. Study that data and you can determine based on condition what a boat is "worth"... Or simply post more details here on the boat make, model, and age and we will give you our opinions. As far as getting your mind right consider this. We here are all in love with boats and sailing and everthing nautical, SO it becomes easy for us to project those feelings on the potential seller. However, the seller may be in a completely different place. They may hate the boat because it is a liabilty they can't afford, or represent a lost dream of sailing they have discovered is not for them, or a thousand other reasons and may not be offended at any offer, but welcome it. As mentioned before, you just don't know until you ask. Once you ask, it quickly becomes clear what type seller you are dealing with. The hypersensitive person who is still in love with their boat and asking/ expecting unreasonable money you simply never talk to again. The person who is willing to deal with you, you deal with. Its easy and fun and exciting. Just don't let the brokers get you emotionally involved (and they will try), at that point you lose some of the ability to make good decisions.

[s/v Beth]

From a seller: I am in the process of getting my little Compac ready to sell. I will place it on the market for what I think it is worth. If someone offers me 70%, or even 50% I will not be offended, but I would not sell either. So don't worry. Offer what you can and see what happens. I would not hold it against you.

[zeehag]

NADA is uppose3d to be the blue book for boats. yacht brokers are supposed to use it for a guide for pricing boats. if the3re is a raging difference between the yw pricing and nada, i would go with nada.

[djmarchand]

These comments from the perspective of someone who worked as a yacht broker for a while:

Every boat that was listed for sale on Yachtworld gets is "actual" sales price reported back to Yachtworld. This Soldboats data is available to brokers, surveyors, but not the general public. Yes I put that word in quotes because some brokers (generally the dealers of the new boat that they sold used) pad the numbers. But after five years the motivation to do that goes away and the numbers reported to Yachtworld are pretty accurate. And you can see who listed and sold the boat and determine if he is a dealer of that boat. If he isn't then the reported sales price is almost certainly accurate. The only exception to that principle is if the selling broker shaves his commission to close the deal. He will generally include the value of the haircut in his reported sales price even though the buyer paid less. My guess is that only one out of ten used boat transactions incur this practice.

Since some 95% of all boats that sell for over $50K are listed in Yachtworld, it is a very comprehensive database.

Any buyer that uses a broker to look for a boat can ask the broker to run the Soldboats data for the boat he is interested in. Boat prices have been volatile (ie dropping rapidly) over the last 3-4 years but have now stabilized. So only look at Soldboat prices over the last year or so.

The Soldboats data gives the original listing data so it is possible to normalize a group of boats for specific equipment, ie generators and advanced navigation equipment. If the boat has a low turnover then it takes some more work. Determine the price trend over the last several years for high turnover boats and then you can adjust limited sales data that might be several years old accordingly. But having said that, specialty or cult boats, ie Island Packet, haven't dropped as fast as C/B/H boats have.

I don't know where NADA and BUC get their data, but my broker colleagues never paid any attention to them. They just didn't represent reality.

David

[zeehag]

funny how i is whenye put a boat for sale with a brokerage they immediately consult nada for pricing of it---but when buying, they toss it (nada) out the window and try to sell a neglected pos for way inflated pricing.... go figger.

this is from personal experience and observation.