My first post - I have a feeling it might not be my last

[Jolly Roger]

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

He He
So, back to the original subject. The Formosa, Hudson, William Garden designs are very close in hull shape, and were strongly influenced by the time Garden spent working under Hugh Angleman. Angleman's defining accomplishment, in my opinion, was the Sea Witch. The sea Witch design was scaled down and sold to a number of builders including Harden. This design was called the Sea Spirit and was 34' LOD. Same beamy, clipper bowed wineglass transom as the Force 50 et al. Having owned and extensively sailed a Sea Spirit, I can say there is not a more comfortable cruising vessel out there. Ours was very fast off the wind, very sea kindly, and had plenty of room below. The classic lines are very appealing to the eye, which in my opinion is a very good indication of their sailing ability. I stand by my assessment that what appeals to the eye is what sails well.
As JohnL mentioned, these vessels used allot of ? over ply (teak, fiberglass etc). These are the weak areas. Water incursion and rot are almost guaranteed. Not hard to fix, but not cheap, plan for it. This hull design sails very well with a ketch rig and sqaure sail. If you are going to go with a vessel of this age, and size, I could not recommend a better choice. The interiors are a true yacht classic. That being said, you wil hear allot of critisizm about the performance of these boats. They are not as fast as most modern vessels up wind, and they are heavy. The ketch rig, is, in my opinion, the best of all worlds, especially on a design like the Formosa. Lot's of sail combos, decent upwind performance, and great downwind performance. Add the square sail, and you have the pirate ship look you are going for with modern performance. So, there's my 2 cents. In case you didn't notice, I really like these boats.

Thanks for the thoughtful insight Kai Nui. I used to have an concrete Endurance 40 ketch which didn't go anywhere without 20 knots of wind, so I'm not bothered about performance. If we wanted to go into the wind we put the engine on and charged the batteries with hot water for free. I considered fitting a yard to it, but didn't know what to do about the mast, which of course had crosstrees and shrouds which impede the bracing of a yard. This is why the fore on a Brigantine is smaller. Any thoughts?

I know it can be done If I recall "Evening Star" was a marconi ketch, and she has a yard on the main. I do not have the book with me right now, so I can't look, but I will grab it next weekend and see if I can find a decent picture. You could always change over to a gaff rig. That would still perform well, get rid of the spreaders, and add a bit of class to the boat I agree completely about the iron genaker. It would be great to make good speed close to the wind, but it is not one of my priorities.
And, since Wheels is too far away to throw things at me ferro boats are not known for light wind performance.

[Alan Wheeler]

Dang, missed, if you were just a couple of yards closer Scott. ;-)
I would like to comment though. It's not JUST FC that needs some breeze, it's any boat of that weight. Steel would be right alongside that. A 20ton boat is a 20ton boat, whether it be from 20Ton of steel, FC or feathers.

I have to concede to that Although... Kittiwake is heavy (8 tons at 28 feet) and she draws 5'6". She will move very well in 5kts of wind. Hull shape is more of a factor than weight in my opinion.

[Joli]

Weight is not really a consideration when sailing in light air. You need to look at SA to Disp, hull form, sail configuration,... to get a good idea of how a boat will perform.

Back in the days, some very good sailors would open the bailers in light air and sink the boat by 6 inches or so. They wanted the weight to lengthen the waterline and give the boat the momentum to carry through the lulls.

We weight 32 tons and tend to match wind speed upwind till about 10 knots.

Oh, and I would not give up the ability to go upwind counting on the engine for that. My $.02

I stand by the title of the book "Gentleman Never Sail To Weather" (In a perfect world of course)

[S/V Elusive]

Kai - You are correct about "Evening Star" ... Since I spent many a lunch hour on the Monterey Pier (1) watching her on the mooring ball - she had the yard up even while moored.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

... "Gentleman Never Sail To Weather" ...

Nor, North (or South) of 27.
This from an inmate of the frozen chosen (Canada, not Korea).

[Joli]

Umm, so what do you do when you find yourself pinned on the lee shore and the engine just does not have enough umph to push you off it?

[S/V Elusive]

Got Anchor?

[Roaminaway]

Jolly Roger,

There are a lot of good reasons to stick with the original mast set up, the best one is that you will be out sailing sooner.

I spent a couple of summers sailing aboard a 124' traditional brig and have done half a dozen sails aboard a modern 90' three masted brigantine. That one had roller furling gaff top sails and roller furling squares on the foremast. Easy to set and trim sails, especially after the traditional brig.

In order to brace around your squares, you will need to redesign the standing rigging. As you are probably aware, your basic square sail mast traditionally came in 3 parts; lower mast, top mast, and top gallant mast. The lower mast was supported with shrouds that went from the chains, and converged at the top of the mast. At the top of the lower mast is a platform called a top. The top mast is supported with shrouds that on the outside edges of the top that converge at the top of the top mast. The top gallant mast is simmilarly supported with shrouds from the crosstrees. The top and the crosstrees serve the same function as the chains plates.

Another kind of shroud is required to support the top and the crosstrees. These are short shrouds called futtock shrouds. The lower futtocks converge at the mast as few feet below the top and radiate outboard to the edge of the top. This stableizes the top, prevents it from flexing up under the tension from the top mast shrouds.

The crotch created where the lower shrouds cross the futtock shrouds is the height your yard arm wants to live. The yard can be braced around in this crotch.

You can approximate this rig pretty easily with a single-peice mast. Your new sail plan may require the spreaders to move up or down a bit, but as you are replacing your outboard shrouds and adding futtock shrouds...

I have seen two different styles of yard rigging. The traditional method involve the yard hanging in a bridle attached to the halyard. Additional rigging, called truss tackles allows the yard to be snugged to the mast. When bracing around, the truss tackles are cast off and the yard is braced around ( right onto the shrouds if going close hauled). Once braced around the truss tackles are taken up to once again snug the yard up against the mast/standing rigging.

With this method, you have a huge amount of flexibility and can go pretty well to windward. You would be able to brace around to the same angle as a jib that is sheeted ouboard of the shrouds. It is a little complicated and a lot of work to sail this way.

The more modern way (late tea clipper technology, I think) is to support the yards on pintles. The pintles need to hold the yard off the mast so there is space for the yard to be braced around. The farther off the mast the pintles hold the yard, the sharper you can brace around.

Good luck with your rig revisions.

I am also impressed with the Formosa designs. They are fine looking boats. There is a nice 41 footer for sale in California, but we are looking for something smaller. We were pretty tempted 'though.

Rick