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Old 12-01-2016, 17:00   #61
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Re: Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

How about another dumb generalization :-)?

If, when you are embayed and Neptune is snarling at you, you can beat outta the bay under canvas, then she's a sailboat regardless of what she looks like.

If you gotta put 1,500 RPM on her to get outta the bay, then she's a motorsailer. Regardless of what she looks like.

I've allus thot that weatherliness is far more important in a cruiser than in a racer.

TrentePieds
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Old 12-01-2016, 17:04   #62
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Re: Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
How about another dumb generalization :-)?

If, when you are embayed and Neptune is snarling at you, you can beat outta the bay under canvas, then she's a sailboat regardless of what she looks like.

If you gotta put 1,500 RPM on her to get outta the bay, then she's a motorsailer. Regardless of what she looks like.

I've allus thot that weatherliness is far more important in a cruiser than in a racer.

TrentePieds
I LIKE that generalisation.
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Old 12-01-2016, 17:24   #63
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Re: Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
How about another dumb generalization :-)?

If, when you are embayed and Neptune is snarling at you, you can beat outta the bay under canvas, then she's a sailboat regardless of what she looks like.

If you gotta put 1,500 RPM on her to get outta the bay, then she's a motorsailer. Regardless of what she looks like.

I've allus thot that weatherliness is far more important in a cruiser than in a racer.

TrentePieds
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Old 17-01-2016, 00:38   #64
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Re: Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxertwinjeff View Post
I'm looking at this Roberts 38 with view to possibly making an offer on it.
It's a 1978 build
Solid fiberglass Hull & deck
appointed well with just about all equipment & electronic etc to go cruising
Survey done Nov 2015 says hull in good condition, though some osmosis
present both sides of the lower part of keel, should this be of great concern?
Mast needs repainting & SS rigging due to be replaced
I must add I'm a newbie to sailing and concerned it may be too large
for me to handle and singlehand being a beginner, though would be living
aboard and don't want to live on a real small boat, prefer abit of space
Owner is asking $AU65,000 as is,.. 75K with new rigging installed.
Not sure if that's a fair price with it being the age it is. any feedback would be appreciated.
As the boats located in Australia, any Aussies here will have a better idea
of the local market.I've learnt the Private seller is asking $AU75,000 as is, or 85K with new Rigging, the recent survey report states the Solid glass hull appears solidy built, though with some osmosis present on the lower area of both sides of the keel,repaired at that time. Engine was rebuilt due to Raw water intrusion, but appears the rebuild was done properly, nothing else majorly adverse was reported by the survey, though remembering its a 1978 home build. Now, would $AU50,000 be a good buy if I could swing it? that's 2/3 of the asking price.
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Old 17-01-2016, 02:31   #65
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Re: Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxertwinjeff View Post
As the boats located in Australia, any Aussies here will have a better idea
of the local market.I've learnt the Private seller is asking $AU75,000 as is, or 85K with new Rigging, the recent survey report states the Solid glass hull appears solidy built, though with some osmosis present on the lower area of both sides of the keel,repaired at that time. Engine was rebuilt due to Raw water intrusion, but appears the rebuild was done properly, nothing else majorly adverse was reported by the survey, though remembering its a 1978 home build. Now, would $AU50,000 be a good buy if I could swing it? that's 2/3 of the asking price.
A bit confused here Was that $75K/$85K or $65K/$75K? Or was the originally quoted price for another boat?

Certainly I think it is a buyer's market in Oz right now, so that should help your negotiations, though I have seen a few good boats get bought at prices higher than I expected. There seems to be a reasonable market for well maintained old cruising boats from my occasional observation.

I cannot offer any wisdom as to the true value of the boat in question (though I do think it looks rather nice), instead I would ask you what it is worth to you and remind you (as I am sure you know) that the buying price is just the tip of the iceberg. You are sure to find some surprises along the way.

Good luck, I do hope it works out.

Matt
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Old 17-01-2016, 03:40   #66
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Re: Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

Yes, I'm talking about the Roberts 38 pictured in this post. Hes asking 75,000 as is, but if he has it Re rigged, his asking price will be 85,000.
The SS Rigging is 13 years old so would be due for replacement I believe.
I'm thinking 50,000 max I would be reasonably comfortable with, then
maybe Re rig with Galvanised for economy sake in the following year.
What attracts me is its been recently refurbished and it has everything
I'd need for comfortable living aboard & cruising, eg: gas instant hotwater, system, 30 litre per hr desalinator, radar, Autopilot, GPS Plotter, HF & SSB Radios etc, 2 KVA
Genny mounted on deck, large bench space in Galley, upright fridge & a chest fridge/freezer, 3m Polycraft dingy with a 15hp Mercury still in warranty, Wind generator, 2 Solar panels etc,etc.
I've looked at quite a few boats and nearly all would need Thousands spent
to achieve the inventory of this boat, my buying budget has got to be kept at 50K. I know, I've probably answered my own question here, but comments would be appreciated anyway.
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Old 17-01-2016, 05:08   #67
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Re: Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxertwinjeff View Post
Yes, I'm talking about the Roberts 38 pictured in this post. Hes asking 75,000 as is, but if he has it Re rigged, his asking price will be 85,000....
Right, so the $65K/$75K was another boat? Sorry, feeling a bit thick..

OK, not sure about the rigging, that one is tricky.

The rest of it sounds very like our fitout, and some of that has proved valuable and other stuff has failed the subsequent test of "do I really, really trust this?" Or, "do we really need this" or... "does this actually work as it should?"

You see each of those items will have a lifespan of its own. Case in point, our boat came with four solar panels, giving, on paper, around 420 watts. In practice, they were all old and crappy and were more like 120 watts in total. Sure, the regulator said it was charging the batteries, but it turns out it was not charging a lot.

We had 400AH of AGM batteries, only a year old. But they turned out to be totally cooked.

I took a close look at the gas hot water unit and figured I would rather NOT be launched into space along with the boat deck, so it went on the scrap metal pile.

The massive pile of radios (4 or 5 of them, including a huge Kenwood HF) all worked, but I really felt, when push came to shove, that I didn't trust them, and I wanted something with DSC, so they all went on Ebay or were donated to enthusiast C.F. members.

The massive engine driven freezer system worked well, but I didn't want to run the engine to have a freezer, so that all went to the scrap metal merchant.

The 1700 watt inverter was a square wave nightmare and tried to cook anything connected to it.

The 35 lph watermaker is sitting in the garage awaiting a decision to re-commission it with a new membrane kit... or not.

And so on...

A few things like the Aerogen 6 and the Coursemaster Autopilot feel like they will go forever, as do the Danfoss fridge, the radar and the C120 plotter.

But our boat is, according to the measurements at the waterline, two tons lighter than when we bought it and lot of that was stuff I paid for, thinking it was good.

So yes, $50K sounds fairly good value for a well designed and sound boat with all that stuff... if all that stuff works and will keep working for a reasonable period of time. But I guess I am saying leave some room in case the "first-date rose coloured glasses" have blinded you to the lifespan of some of those items, as it did for me.

I know I felt a bit na´ve a year down the track, but I bought a boat for exactly half of our budget, so I had room to move.

Matt
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Old 19-01-2016, 02:41   #68
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Re: Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

Taking that the boat is a well founded yacht, which it appears to be
from the Survey report, & looking at the photos on the first page would
you say it would handle Rough weather / big Seas in its stride?
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Old 19-01-2016, 03:34   #69
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Re: Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxertwinjeff View Post
Taking that the boat is a well founded yacht, which it appears to be
from the Survey report, & looking at the photos on the first page would
you say it would handle Rough weather / big Seas in its stride?
Well, given Jim Cate says he knows a couple who did a circumnavigation in a Roberts 38 without the wheelhouse, it is probably fine.

But as the smart sailors here will tell you, it's not the boat that has trouble handling the conditions, but the crew.
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Old 19-01-2016, 04:39   #70
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Re: Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

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Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan View Post
A rough rule of thumb: if she has a pilot house (or center cockpit, or huge engine with a three-bladed prop, or, God forbid, two engines) she's a motorsailer. Not absolute; Tom Colvin put a pilot house on a thoroughbred sailing boat, but, sadly, you will encounter very few Tom Colvins in a lifetime.

Paul
So we have a pilot house, two three blade props, and two "heaven forbid" engines. Plus 110sqm / 1100sqf of sail area and two masts. Motorsailer? Hardly.

The same could be said for the Nicholson 58 in the neighbouring boatyard - 3 blade prop, centre cockpit with hard dodger, plus a huge sail plan and 10ft draft.

To the OP - a Roberts 38 is a great boat. You could always add a hard dodger plus tent or a pilothouse later. Galvy rigging is also a great choice - cheaper, doesn't fatigue break and just as tough.

n

Edit: Matt speaks the truth here. There's a good chance a lot of the "extras" on the boat will either not be suitable for you, or won't work. Roberts have a reputation of being slower but very tough boats - if you're looking to go long distance, she'll be a great platform for you to add your bits to.
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Old 25-01-2016, 03:59   #71
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Re: Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

Here is a sample of the Solid glass Hull from just above the waterline,
approx. 20 - 25mm thickness,... another skin fitting sample showed approx. 8 -10mm thickness from just under the timber Rub Rail, (see P.1 photo.)
Is this thickness what you'd class as substantial?
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Old 25-01-2016, 04:12   #72
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Re: Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

Substantial, yes.

Useful...? Not so much.

Our boat suffers a similar problem. The layup was, to put it mildly, excessive. We have an extra ton of resin and glass on top of the already generous original layup. That's a whole ton of pretty useless weight. A pity really, it just wasn't necessary, but the guy who had the hull built in '78 didn't trust this new-fangled fibreglass stuff.

Still, provided it was laid up properly you won't lose a lot of sleep over osmosis. And most other boats will bounce off you without leaving a mark.

Matt


P.S. Any chance of posting a bigger picture? I am seeing a lot of colour variation on the layers there. I am no expert, but that is a bit odd, and may indicate layup issues. I've never seen such colour variation before.
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Old 25-01-2016, 05:07   #73
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Re: Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

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Substantial, yes.

Useful...? Not so much.

Our boat suffers a similar problem. The layup was, to put it mildly, excessive. We have an extra ton of resin and glass on top of the already generous original layup. That's a whole ton of pretty useless weight. A pity really, it just wasn't necessary, but the guy who had the hull built in '78 didn't trust this new-fangled fibreglass stuff.

Still, provided it was laid up properly you won't lose a lot of sleep over osmosis. And most other boats will bounce off you without leaving a mark.

Matt


P.S. Any chance of posting a bigger picture? I am seeing a lot of colour variation on the layers there. I am no expert, but that is a bit odd, and may indicate layup issues. I've never seen such colour variation before.
If you've clicked on the thumbnail that's as large as it gets, the seller
sent it to me, was wondering if the colour variation meant anything negative. I have a friend whos a professional Boat fibreglasser, will be showing him this pic for his opinion. As said before, the keel was showing
some minor osmosis since repaired, the Surveyor noted that the hull was
in good condition overall.
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Old 25-01-2016, 05:19   #74
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Re: Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxertwinjeff View Post
If you've clicked on the thumbnail that's as large as it gets, the seller
sent it to me, was wondering if the colour variation meant anything negative. I have a friend whos a professional Boat fibreglasser, will be showing him this pic for his opinion. As said before, the keel was showing
some minor osmosis since repaired, the Surveyor noted that the hull was
in good condition overall.
Hopefully nothing to worry about, but not something I have seen before. Minaret is the fibreglass guru on C.F., you might see if you can raise his attention for an opinion too.

Please do report back, I for one am most interested, and I think she's a lovely looking boat so I do hope it is nothing more than cosmetic.

Crossing my fingers for you.

Matt
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Old 25-01-2016, 08:35   #75
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Re: Motor Sailor or Sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxertwinjeff View Post
Here is a sample of the Solid glass Hull from just above the waterline,
approx. 20 - 25mm thickness,... another skin fitting sample showed approx. 8 -10mm thickness from just under the timber Rub Rail, (see P.1 photo.)
Is this thickness what you'd class as substantial?



Not a great pic, but I don't see anything which would concern me. I'd guess if you took that sample and sanded it, you'd find a lot of that milky whiteness is just from the hole saw. A better pic of the sample after a bit of light sanding would be more revealing.
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