Motion Control

[Hiracer]

Lady Circumnavi,

I have a Brewer boat. Ted Brewer was for a time an assistant designer to Luders.

I don't think it's any accident that we share views on seakindliness.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Hiracer

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Compared to what, is the question. What's the yardstick? I've been on a number of boats, and never knew what seakindly was until I got on one.

And let me add, just because it has a canoe stern or was designed in the 1970s doesn't automatically mean it's seakindly. Not by my standards.

IMO, the vast majority of sailboats are not seakindly. Modern or not. It's a rare breed that is.

John,
I think have a good test for seakindlyness. Let's meet up on the West coast of Vancouver Is. I will go out on your boat as crew. When it gets kicking in the afternoon we can go below and discuss the meaning of life. If I throw up on your settee, then the boats not seakindly - if I don't then you win.

Paul L

[Tempest245]

Originally Posted by Hiracer

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Compared to what, is the question. What's the yardstick? I've been on a number of boats, and never knew what seakindly was until I got on one.

IMO, the vast majority of sailboats are not seakindly. Modern or not. It's a rare breed that is.

Hi ....Can we name a few Vessels ? This thread can last forever on generalities...and formula. The boats exist out there and they have names.
Which vessels are we talking about? John Neale Put a list together, of cruising vessels should we try to put a list together of sea-kindly cruising vessels..?

Is it a Valiant, a Swan, a Cabo Rico, an Island Packet, a Bene...or any number of others?

Let's define the terms. Is sea-kindly a vessel that will sail comfortably in 6-10 foot seas and 30 knots of wind...or must it's occupants be able to sleep through a hurricane at sea?

I think, as important, as the sea-kindly nature of a boat, I want it to be well built.....

I don't think we can assume that well constructed vessels are always sea-kindly....can we assume the opposite? probably not..

The formula are interesting, but how many people can afford to go to a builder with a design and say build this.

So whats the shopping list for well built, sea-kindly vessels? That are already floating?

[Hiracer]

Tempest,

The only boat that I have felt was seakindly is my current boat, which is a one-off but is close to a Goderich in steel. (Technically it's a Brewer Humoric but with a fin keel instead of full keel--and the bow stretched out.) I've never been on a boat that felt like it. Not saying it's the only boat. Saying it's the only boat I've been on that felt seakindly. It moved the bar for me, for sure.

I'm certain there are others; I just haven't been on them.

My boat is definitely old school design. Heavy, moderate beam, lots of deadrise, modest B/D, lots of underwater lateral area (healthy sized keel, skeg, and rudder). No canoe stern and no canoe body. Lot of boat under the water, less above, when compared to modern designs.

Paul,

How about we go the same place, go forward to reef, and see if the boat tries to kick us overboard? To me that's where it's at. How hard is it to work the boat when things go nasty?

I don't equate 'motion comfort' with lack throwing up. Seakindliness is the better term because is suggests all the attributes Lady Circumnavi summarized. She put it very well.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Paul L

. If I throw up on your settee, then the boats not seakindly

You're a funny man, Paul

I'll garantee our velour.. or is it faux velour?

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Hiracer

....How about we go the same place, go forward to reef, and see if the boat tries to kick us overboard? To me that's where it's at. How hard is it to work the boat when things go nasty?
.....

Interesting definition of seakindly. Seems that a boat that is easy to sail would fit here a lot too then. One that doesn't need large sail area to keep moving, one that has deck hardware that works easily, one that tracks well and is light on the helm, .... I know you were just using reefing as an example, but I've found the quality of the hardware and the setup was a lot more relevant than the boat design for how easy it is to reef in tough conditions.

Paul L

[Hiracer]

Paul,

I agree hardware can make a difference but seakindliness will determine how badly you miss it if it ain't up to snuff.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by Tempest245

So whats the shopping list for well built, sea-kindly vessels? That are already floating?

I've never sailed one, but Pacific Seacraft is often cited as an example.

I understand that somebody bought most of the molds after PS folded, and the boats are back in production on the East Coast.

[Hiracer]

Paul,

If your jib tears on a particularly boisterous day, seakindliness will determine your pucker factor when you think about going forward to pull it off the roller furling.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Hiracer

If your jib tears on a particularly boisterous day, seakindliness will determine your pucker factor when you think about going forward to pull it off the roller furling.

Yes, but you are, again, picking the wrong boat. Mine is more safe than the old narrow boats you are lauding. Your sort of boat the bow pitches down deep under the waves... I know I have been forward hand on more races than I care to remember and have had solid green water half way up my boady while on the bow hanking or unhanding jibs and kites. But the modern design boat like ours doesnt sink by the bow in a wave so one can go forward are play with the sails.

I really commend you to sail one.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Yes, but you are, again, picking the wrong boat. Mine is more safe than the old narrow boats you are lauding. Your sort of boat the bow pitches down deep under the waves... I know I have been forward hand on more races than I care to remember and have had solid green water half way up my boady while on the bow hanking or unhanding jibs and kites. But the modern design boat like ours doesnt sink by the bow in a wave so one can go forward are play with the sails.

I really commend you to sail one.

My boat, as I said, is of moderate beam. 12'5" on 36.5 LOA, 30.25 LWL. She is definitely not a wet boat.

And I agree with you, in that a seakindly boat, by definition, is not a wet boat.

As I said before, the age of the design does not determine whether it is a seakindly boat.

A seakindly boat looks after her crew. She takes less work to work in badly confused seas. Seakindliness in a boat becomes a matter of seaworthiness once crew capabilities become reduced.

If you're curious, I suggest you Google the term.

In my experience, most boats don't have it (especially newer lightweight beamy designs which rely heavily on form stabilty). Thus, few people have the pleasure of ever actually experiencing it (except in the context of big boats which have it more often). I personally never knew what it was until I sailed a boat that had it. It was a revelation.

[Tempest245]

Mark, haha..... I remember watching a crew member on my boat disappear into a wave up to his waist twice on the bow coming off a 12 footer in the Gulf Stream...

at least the water was warm......not a fun place to be though.

[bob perry]

How about a brief desscription on objective terns of what exactly "sea kindness" is?
In objective terms please.


This should be very interesting.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by bob perry

How about a brief desscription on objective terns of what exactly "sea kindness" is?
In objective terms please.

That pornography is difficult or impossible to define is hardly an argument that it doesn't exist.

[Amgine]

Not fair, Mr Perry; I still have not secured a copy of Marchaj's work on the subject! But allow me a quote from Mr Coles:

My own preference, if building again, would be towards moderate displacement and a well-proportioned hull with no extreme features.

I think the words which rise to mind for myself are: moderate acceleration, dry, predictable motion, ease of management, robust fittings and rig, attention to details such as rounded corners and short fall lines. In short, all the ergonomics and psychological pacifiers which sailors believe will let them make long passages without stress or strain.

The problem for me is I don't know if any of that has any more than a placebo effect, and I think there simply aren't enough custom boats built, passages made, and sailors studied to find out.