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Old 03-02-2009, 14:05   #46
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Hi:
We figured that one out years ago when the V-40 was new. Hard on the wind with a genoa the staysail was no help at all. In fact it hurt.
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Old 03-02-2009, 15:28   #47
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Bah!

If I'd checked the site early this morning I could have gotten to Tacoma. <sigh>

The canoe image looks very sexy and aggressive. Can't wait to hear how it works out.

Now back to considering new running rigging hardware to go with new sails...
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Old 03-02-2009, 15:53   #48
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Out of my league but...

Does anyone use the term "sea kindly" anymore? I think that term speaks more to a well designed boat and the effects of that design on her crew than anything else. Reserve bouyancy in the stern (another lost concept) a canoe stern, rounded surfaces, a fine entry, all these things play a part. Stiffness, gents, is just a small piece of the picture. When the conditions get nasty, I don't want to be on a boat that surfs. I don't want breaking seas in the cockpit. I don't want to be stopped dead as I plow into a head sea. I want a predictable motion beneath my feet, and I want to be able to heave to when it gets really bad and know the boat is tougher than I am and she'll take care of me.The naval architects who figure all this out have my respect. One of my greatest regrets in my sailing life was that I never personally contacted Bill Luders to express my appreciation for the wisdom he showed in all aspects of designing the Luders 33.

Racing rules have impacted sailing designs as have the needs of charter companies. Well-designed cruising boats don't have to be dogs in order to be safe. But how they behave when in confused seas, running before a gale and all the other conditions one might encounter, that's what separates a good design from just another pretty boat. Fatigue is the greates enemy of a blue water sailor. It's hard not to be continually fatigued on a boat that has a unkind motion.
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Old 03-02-2009, 16:07   #49
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Nicely Stated!
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Old 03-02-2009, 19:19   #50
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Hey, you're taking the words out of my mouth! Stop it.

Seriously, you state the case better than I ever could. 'Seakindly' is a much more descriptive term. Thanks.






But the $64 question is how does one design a boat like that?

Seems seakindliness is no longer a design objective anymore. Party cockpits and big berths aft are the goals these days.

I went to a boat show last week. Many of the new designs have not a single seaberth anywhere to be found in the boat. Zippo. Nada. So, if you're not putting in seaberths, why would you worry about seakindliness? That would be totally inconsistent (he says, snorting loudly).
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Old 04-02-2009, 02:01   #51
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Seems seakindliness is no longer a design objective anymore. Party cockpits and big berths aft are the goals these days.
Go live on a boat for a while and you'll find out why a big cockpit is great!

Most times we go onboard some old clunker of the type of boat you are talking about (though they may be brand new) you can't fit 4 people in the cockpit for drinks without someone having to be behind the wheel, or hidden by the binnacle, and not being able to be seen by the other 3.

A cockpit is more than a mistaken defence of some mysterious roller we have never had aboard, its your living room! Your Room with a View! Your entertaining area for new friends! The first place Customs and Immigration officials see when they get on your boat and the impression that makes. Its the best place to sleep on hot tropical nights or when gently running under the stars. Our cockpit is the first compliment we get as people come aboard. Our second compliment is when they come below. The third compliment is the huge size of our beds.

The liveability of a boat has far outstripped the designs of yesteryear. Not only are they vastly more habitable they are sea kindly and safe. I know of no statistics that show canoe stern boats being safer than others. In fact on sinkability or EPIRBable incidents I remember more involving Halberg Rassys and Swans than Beneteatus


If a couple is living on board for 10 or 15 years then a party cockpit is the right size for a party of 2. And big berths where 2 can cuddle are ..... necessaary also


Mark
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Old 04-02-2009, 10:03   #52
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Mark,

Makers make what the market wants. Boy do they.

But there is a minority of us who would, and do, knowingly trade party attributes for seakindliness. And that segment of the market is pretty much ignored these days.

Further, the two design objectives are not totally antitthetical. It is possible to design a seakindly boat with a less than small cockpit. But, as a general rule (there are exceptions) that is no longer being done because there is little demand for new boats with seakindly motion. The pendulum has swung way out.

What I find most interesting is the assumption that you can't have both. I see this time and time again. People define design choices as either/or, when in fact they are not. This is, I suspect, a result of the market for new boats offering (mostly) only either/or choices. This goes to the core of the lament. Market choices these days are very truncated. Didn't used to be that way.

I think boat buyers these days don't ask for enough. And thus it is they don't get enough.

P.S. Having learned keel boat sailing in Alaska, I can assure you not everybody uses the cockpit as a surrogate living room or bedroom. Location, location, location.
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Old 04-02-2009, 10:38   #53
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the demographics have changed, and they've changed radically

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiracer View Post
Makers make what the market wants. Boy do they. But there is a minority of us who would, and do, knowingly trade party attributes for seakindliness. And that segment of the market is pretty much ignored these days.
When I look around the marina where I'm currently berthed, I see two types of tenants. On one hand, there are the bachelor sailors, who may or may not be married, but if they are involved in a relationship their wives/girlfriends never come down to the boat except maybe for the 4th of July to watch the fireworks. These gents tend to want boats with pilot berths, small cockpits, and less beam. For them the old designs are better. On the other hand, there are the sailing couples. They tend to want queen berths below, a large galley, and a spacious cockpit for entertaining. There are exceptions to these trends, no doubt, but as a general rule more people tend to be cruising these days as couples, and couples tend to favor the more modern designs.

The current market for boats--especially cruising boats--includes far more women than it did twenty years ago. As far as I'm concerned, that's a good thing. It would be naive not to expect this changing demographic to impact boat design.
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Old 04-02-2009, 11:43   #54
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The current market for boats--especially cruising boats--includes far more women than it did twenty years ago.
Couples have been sailing for as long as I can remember. I think what has happened is that women are more involved in the purchase, partly because marital dynamics have changed, men are perhaps more deferential in the boat department--a good thing, and more women are paying for these boats, in part or in full.

I know my wifed picked our current boat. Grabbed me by my collar, sucked me in nose-to-nose, and guttered, "BUY ME THIS BOAT!" And, boy, she meant it. Since we were not in the market for a boat until after my wife got a new job and tripled her salary, I kind of listened to her. (Slight understatement there.)

But she wouldn't even look them wide transom, modern canoe bodied boats. Didn't want nothing to do with them. Not even to first base.
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Old 04-02-2009, 12:02   #55
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Guys (and gals),

My agrument is that the market for new boat designs today is much more truncated than it used to be. Boats are looking more and more like each other, with little meaningful design differences.

One of the design attributes pretty much lost in the shuffle has been seakindliness.

I agree with you that women have had a huge impact on sailboat design--in many respects, if not most, for the better.

But why would women angle towards an unseakindly design? That's what I don't get. I would have thought they would demand the opposite.
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Old 04-02-2009, 13:25   #56
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Quote:
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One of the design attributes pretty much lost in the shuffle has been seakindliness.


I strongly disagree!
Now, please read my opinion here and see what I'm driving at : Modern 'party' boats are seakindly!
You don't need to have a canoe stern to have a good boat!
I have sailed oceans in everything from a Swan 65 racing a trans atlantic, 68 ft aluminium one off design racing around the canaries; a Waquiz 54 trans Med, a 48 foot timber Huon pine Tasmanian designed (Jock Muir) and built boat as well as our 39 footer.

Our current boat is NO LESS SEA KINDLY!

We have NEVER had a wave over the stern. We have never had solid green water over the bow that gets to the stern. The cockpit remains dry in all weather. And if the cockpit does fill up the tiny little drains old boats have are nopthing to the slot at the top of the swim platform. We NEVER wear wet weather gear except for rain protection. We never wear it for spray or sea protection.

Seasickness and fatigue comes from being wet cold and bounced around. I can tell you that the modern design boats are up on top. You'll be warmer, dryer and bounced less so can cook a warm meal.

The only difference in our boat sea kindliness as others is its overall size. The 65, and 68 re obviously better. Each foot gives a more stable boat.

So, please take on board my opinion, weather you agree with me or not, that modern boats are sea kindly

Maybe what it gets down to is that most women are right: A big fat bum on a boat, with a big fat cockpit, big fat beds, a big fat galley and big fat heads do make for a more livable boat.

I commend you to come and bunk down on Sea Life - we are heading to the Whitsundays so the fishing and snorkeling will be as good as the sailing - and see if I can't change your mind


Mark


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Old 04-02-2009, 13:38   #57
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Mark, I respect your opinion and your loyalty to your own boat which has obviously served you well so far. I'm very familiar with Beneteas as I worked for he Moorings for several years, first out of their office in Clearwater,FL and later in Tortola, BVI. In Tortola, part of my job was to debrief the delivery skippers.

Charley Carey worked hard in those days to combine the best of easy to handle, easy to repair and easy to enjoy features in those boats. Many of the comforts cruisers enjoy today on their boats go back to Charley's design innovations and the needs of charterers.

Your boat will be tested and will probably rise to the occasion. There are seas, winds and conditions that can and will defeat even the most soundly built and designed boat. To believe otherwise is foolhardy.
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Old 04-02-2009, 13:46   #58
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see my response in speed vs comfort. But it's a function of seas as opposed to wind. Nothing worse than those light morning winds and large sloppy seas in a heavy boat after good night's blow .... even motorsailing.
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Old 04-02-2009, 14:01   #59
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There are seas, winds and conditions that can and will defeat even the most soundly built and designed boat. To believe otherwise is foolhardy.
A Swan 57 pitchpoled last year 650 miles south east of Capetown.

I am not sailing there.

Nor should they ahve been as they lost lives.
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Old 04-02-2009, 14:04   #60
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Modern 'party' boats are seakindly!




Compared to what, is the question. What's the yardstick? I've been on a number of boats, and never knew what seakindly was until I got on one.

And let me add, just because it has a canoe stern or was designed in the 1970s doesn't automatically mean it's seakindly. Not by my standards.

IMO, the vast majority of sailboats are not seakindly. Modern or not. It's a rare breed that is.
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