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Old 11-11-2012, 13:59   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, I can't dispute your observations of mistaken identity, so we'll leave that one behind.

Meanwhile, I am most impressed with your sailing ability when you routinely beat Beneteaus. Why? Well, a little research shows the following PHRF ratings for similar sized boats:

Bene First 40.7 54 sec/mile
Bene 411 75 sec/mile
BEne 42 84 sec/mile

and

Morgan 41-2 183 sec/mile
Morgan 44 Catalina 174 sec/mile

Thus, all those Beneteaus should be waxing your butt. Perhaps you should consider a career as a professional racer.

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PS. We also own a B393.
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Old 11-11-2012, 15:33   #17
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Re: Morgan Out Island 41 vs. the Pacific Ocean?

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Originally Posted by twrdocktor View Post
Not sure of your point. We beat an aluminum 47 Van der Stadt on several occasions. Have pictures showing us passing them south of Cuba.

The point is, a Morgan is a fine cruising boat that can take the seas, the weather and provide a comfortable ride at good speeds. Circumnavigating Cuba and then sailing in the Caribbean has not left me boostful or dillusional. We encountered numerous capes, numerous squalls, a ton of tropical depression, two hurricanes and a lot of sailors that thought cruising was laying their boat on the rail and racing for the sunset. The figures you quote don't mean anything to me, I've never been in the Sunday or Wednesday night race crowd. I know that on the water, knowing your boat and knowing that the other sailor is probably out there with limited experience, will serve me well to keep ahead of them. If people are looking at a racer/ cruiser, then they will look a long time for something that is actually a mix which will please the wife. (That's 75% of cruising contentment right there). The first has a great keel, but a little too long for some great anchorages in Cuba.
Well, The point is this: the OP was asking for opinions about the OI 41 as a ocean going cruising boat. Some responders opined that they were not known for good sailing performance. You said that yours routinely beat Beneteaus (and now VdeS Samoas).

So, I pointed out that the PHRF ratings (which are generated by analysis of many many race results where the actual performance of boats sailed to their best abilities is recorded) showed that the OI 41 should be considerably slower than Beneteaus of similar size. My own limited observations agree with this. Our friends who owned an OI 41 sold her and bought a Hans Christian 43, and found that the HC was faster, even to windward. HCs are not known for sparkling performance either...

I certainly agree that the Morgan is a fine cruising boat for folks who are willing to accept the tradeoffs of volume for speed. I do not agree that the OI 41 will routinely beat Beneteaus of similar size IF the Beneteaus are in similar condition (sails, bottom cleanliness, etc ) and which are being sailed equally attentively. The folks who generate the PHRF ratings seem to not agree either.

I don't want to get involved in a pissing match. I'm glad that you love your Morgan, and that her performance pleases you so much.

For the OP, if he is still on board: if sailing performance is high in your list of desirable characteristics you might want to consider the ratings as an objective measuring criterium.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 11-11-2012, 16:19   #18
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Re: Morgan Out Island 41 vs. the Pacific Ocean?

In terms of the Morgan Out Island 41 being acceptable for a Pacific crossing I'd suggest extreme caution. I know of at least one that vanished with no distress call.

I'll also point out that these are now very old boats and that ensuring that they are structurally viable for a Pacific crossing may cost more than buying a boat that is already suitable.

The main difference between Caribbean cruising and a Pacific crossing is that in the Pacific voyages may last for weeks or even months and repair facilities are very limited.
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Old 11-11-2012, 16:54   #19
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Re: Morgan Out Island 41 vs. the Pacific Ocean?

Our 91 Morgan Catalina is layed up better, has less flex, has better standing rigging which with maintenance, doesn't age. Anyone saying that Caribbean sailing is easier, hasn't been to the Caribe. Europeans often come through and when asked why theyre eager to move onto the Pacific, they mostly all say, "too much wind."
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Old 11-11-2012, 16:58   #20
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Re: Morgan Out Island 41 vs. the Pacific Ocean?

[QUOTE=Jim Cate;1082135]Well, The point is this: the OP was asking for opinions about the OI 41 as a ocean going cruising boat. Some responders opined that they were not known for good sailing performance. You said that yours routinely beat Beneteaus (and now VdeS Samoas).

Well the Samoas left Cabo Cruz with us at the same time, and the pictures show us near Maira Portillo. Certainly I'm not trailing by far, and we in fact passed a little later.

Hope the pictures show up.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:32   #21
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Re: Morgan Out Island 41 vs. the Pacific Ocean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Well, The point is this: the OP was asking for opinions about the OI 41 as a ocean going cruising boat. Some responders opined that they were not known for good sailing performance. You said that yours routinely beat Beneteaus (and now VdeS Samoas).

So, I pointed out that the PHRF ratings (which are generated by analysis of many many race results where the actual performance of boats sailed to their best abilities is recorded) showed that the OI 41 should be considerably slower than Beneteaus of similar size. My own limited observations agree with this. Our friends who owned an OI 41 sold her and bought a Hans Christian 43, and found that the HC was faster, even to windward. HCs are not known for sparkling performance either...

I certainly agree that the Morgan is a fine cruising boat for folks who are willing to accept the tradeoffs of volume for speed. I do not agree that the OI 41 will routinely beat Beneteaus of similar size IF the Beneteaus are in similar condition (sails, bottom cleanliness, etc ) and which are being sailed equally attentively. The folks who generate the PHRF ratings seem to not agree either.

I don't want to get involved in a pissing match. I'm glad that you love your Morgan, and that her performance pleases you so much.

For the OP, if he is still on board: if sailing performance is high in your list of desirable characteristics you might want to consider the ratings as an objective measuring criterium.

Cheers,

Jim
So how does the Westsail that finished the Pac Cup in the middle of the pack compare with the boats behind it? Are you saying it's impossible for that to occur?
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:43   #22
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Re: Morgan Out Island 41 vs. the Pacific Ocean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
So how does the Westsail that finished the Pac Cup in the middle of the pack compare with the boats behind it? Are you saying it's impossible for that to occur?
Transpacs are primarily downwind races. Some of the comments about the OI have been related to their upwind performance.

I didn't see any Westsails in either of the last two PACs final results.

Saraband did very well in the 2010 SHTP, but she sailed very well to her rating. Look at the actual amount of time it took her to finish and she is comparable to other boats in her size range that are known more for cruising comfort than speed potential. 2012 SHTP, don't see anything fantastic with the Westsail there in terms of actual time to finish.

I have done some sailing on a friend's OI 41. SA/D is low, takes more wind to make it worthwhile to sail. Drove me crazy watching the wake trail angled to weather, it makes a LOT of leeway going upwind.

PACCup 2010
2010 Final Standings Page | Pacific Cup

PACCup 2012
2012 Pacific Cup 02 Aug 2012 08:00 PDT Position Report

Saraband is a Westsail 32 and sails faster than some in its rating area,
2010 SHTP results
http://www.sfbaysss.org/TransPac/tra...010Results.pdf

Westsail
2012 SHTP results
http://www.sfbaysss.org/2012/PDF/SHT...%20overall.pdf
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:16   #23
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Re: Morgan Out Island 41 vs. the Pacific Ocean?

Most people confuse the OI with the Catalina Morgan, the Classic. I will admit that going upwind with a Morgan is a struggle at times, but if you know the boat, and her peculiarities, you will keep up with the fleet. However, what most forget is that I said I routinely beat Benteaus in the Caribbean. And I do. However, you all assume that all Beneteau drivers know their boats. I stand behind my comments and the Morgan. Ratings are made so that all boats under ideal conditions cross the finish line at the same time. The difference then is the crew. Most people cruising haven't a clue about ratings or maximizing speed. The difference between 5.8 knots and 6.1 makes a difference over 1200 miles, but most crews crossing are retired folk with more ambition than skill. Cruising is not a race but a melding of ideals, realities, budget and compromise. I will never pick a cruising boat based on ratings. Everyone should google the Copelands, who went around twice in a 39 Beneteau and never thought twice about the boat. The Beneteau is sloppier than any Morgan, lighter, has less volume and isn't my first pick in a squall. So lets be reasonable in our knocking boats out of contention for those trying to find a boat within their budgets. I will leave these as my last words as I too don't want to be in a pissing contest. I respect all opinions and respect those that are contemplating cruising, and those out on their boats trying to fulfill their dreams. I have 5 years in Cuba to Grenada, any one wanting advice, I am pleased to answer any queries. May we all live our dreams.
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Old 12-11-2012, 17:03   #24
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Re: Morgan Out Island 41 vs. the Pacific Ocean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twrdocktor View Post
Most people confuse the OI with the Catalina Morgan, the Classic.
Glad this was finally brought up. Have been meaning to add this comment to the thread but was traveling and not logging on.

The original Morgan OI 41 had a long, very shoal draft keel and is the one that most people are familiar with. I don't care how good a sailor you are, that boat will not point well.

The Morgan 41 Classic, I as I recall, maintains the layout and lines of the OI 41 but with a modified fin keel and skeg hung rudder, giving much better upwind performance and even a little better off wind due to lower wetted surface area.
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Old 12-11-2012, 22:20   #25
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Re: Morgan Out Island 41 vs. the Pacific Ocean?

Wasn't aware of the design differences... but was the subject of the thread not teh original OI 41? There are other Morgans that are even better performers, but they are not the boat that the OP was wondering about.

Enough...

Jim
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Old 12-11-2012, 22:52   #26
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Re: Morgan Out Island 41 vs. the Pacific Ocean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Looks like a H/R???? Especially with your eyes closed and your back turned...

That's a real stretcher IMO!

Jim
Thanx for that. My feelings were getting hurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtcapo View Post
Not to burst your bubble, if you talk to delivery captains they will rank the O/I 41 as one of the worst sailing vessels afloat. Long on accommodations, short on sailing ability.

In this buyers market there are far better choices out there....

RT
Hence the nic-name...Out House 41

Quote:
Originally Posted by twrdocktor View Post
Even though I said it a bit tongue and cheek, the 41 Morgan (Catalina) Classic that we sailed was mistaken for a Hallberry Rassey by 5 couples on 5 occasions.
...and five bottles of Dark Rum

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Glad this was finally brought up. Have been meaning to add this comment to the thread but was traveling and not logging on.

The original Morgan OI 41 had a long, very shoal draft keel and is the one that most people are familiar with. I don't care how good a sailor you are, that boat will not point well.

The Morgan 41 Classic, I as I recall, maintains the layout and lines of the OI 41 but with a modified fin keel and skeg hung rudder, giving much better upwind performance and even a little better off wind due to lower wetted surface area.
I knew a delivery skipper that was on one and told me they had to motor tack constantly.
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Old 13-11-2012, 07:08   #27
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Re: Morgan Out Island 41 vs. the Pacific Ocean?

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I knew a delivery skipper that was on one and told me they had to motor tack constantly.
Was that on the original OI41 or the Classic 41? I have never been on the classic but from a picture of the underwater profile I would expect them to much better than the original. However, draft is still less than 5' on a 41' boat so would not expect them to be exactly close winded.
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Old 13-11-2012, 07:36   #28
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Re: Morgan Out Island 41 vs. the Pacific Ocean?

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Was that on the original OI41 or the Classic 41? I have never been on the classic but from a picture of the underwater profile I would expect them to much better than the original. However, draft is still less than 5' on a 41' boat so would not expect them to be exactly close winded.
I'm not sure. I don't remember him giving me much details about it. But it does sound like it might be the original. I imagine in light winds, tacking would be a challenge.
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Old 13-11-2012, 08:13   #29
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Re: Morgan Out Island 41 vs. the Pacific Ocean?

you guys comparing apples to bananas...
morgan had a few different designers. each designer had a different idea for the cruising boats designed.
each marque has suffered a loss at sea, so that isnt a good way to measure the seaworthiness of a boat.
the number left sailing the seas is not a good measure , either.
seems to me that if you wish to learn about a specific marque, there are owners clubs and organizations wherein they discuss/brag/complain and such about that particular brand of boat.
walk the dock and ask everyone with morgan oi 41 how they like their boat and could you please have a day of sailing to see if it is what you want to sail.
each boat is different--dont buy without the try.
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Old 13-11-2012, 12:39   #30
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Re: Morgan Out Island 41 vs. the Pacific Ocean?

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I'm not sure. I don't remember him giving me much details about it. But it does sound like it might be the original. I imagine in light winds, tacking would be a challenge.
If the original OI41 then that was my experience. Spent more time on the OI36 but that was a carbon copy of the 41. Like they put a 41 in the Honey I Shrunk the Kids machine and made it 5' smaller. Looked the same and sailed the same.

Almost ran head on into a rocky cliff once trying to short tack out of the channel in Marsh Harbor in light air.
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