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Old 26-01-2006, 20:25   #1
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Morgan 41', Islander Freeport 41' or CSY 44'?

I am considering buying a Morgan 41' or an Islander Freeport 41' I will be doing a lot of coastal sailing. I'm planning to sail from oregon all the way down to the Bahamas, and the coast of South America as well. I'm planning to be sailing with my family for about 4 years. Any advice? I also LOVE the CSY 44' Which boat is more appropriate for the type of sailing I'm planning to do? Thank you for all your advise!
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Old 27-01-2006, 05:35   #2
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First of all, the planned cruise that you are descibing would not be a 'Coastal cruise' by any stretch of the imagination. Neither the Morgan 41' or an Islander Freeport 41 would be particularly well suited for that kind of offshore work. Of the three, if you found a CSY 44 in sound and updated condition, it would be a better choice. If you don't know why, then you are probably not ready for a trip like this.

On the other hand, if your non'd'forum "Soon2bsailor" means that you are just starting to sail, then none of these boats make even a little bit of sense for you. You would be far ahead of the game to buy a substanitally smaller, lighter, fin keeled, sloop rigged, coastal cruiser and spend a bunch of time on the water learning to sail, and developing the full range fo skills that will be required for a trip like you are proposal.

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Old 29-01-2006, 01:28   #3
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Hello Mr. Jeff

You are totally correct. I have NO previous sailing experience. I have read a few books, and have been out sailing three times with my sailing instructor in a Pearson 38. In fact, that’s the whole purpose why I enjoyed this wonderful room to learn and listen from people like you. In addition, I will not put my family in harm way. I definitely will learn how to sail very well and I will get a lot of experience before I take my wife and kids offshore.


Respectfully;

Abraham
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Old 29-01-2006, 08:36   #4
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Hi Soon2Be:

When are you planning to leave? I would suggest that if you have already had some sailing lessons and understand some theory, just spend a coupe thousand dollars on a small, old, used day sailing sailboat. Maybe a trailered one.

Take this boat out and try out all the theories. Go out in stiff breezes, heave to, etc...

In all honesty, this is how I first learned. Learning on a 41' boat would be most difficult, because you can't just "manhandle" the boat when you do something wrong (and we all do while we learn).

The little boat is more forgiving and definitely less expensive to trash.

Once you know what you like about a boat, and how to handle them (from all your time aboard the forgiving smaller one), you can then revisit your purchase plans based on what you like in a boat.

BTW: I do agree with you in that much of the routes you are discussing are indeed coastal in nature with some island hopping involved. Nasty conditions will surely crop up, and you'll have a some 3 or 4 day passages, but nothing like an ocean crossing. This means you really don't need to get a boat that's beefed up for world cruising (read expensive). But do beware of a boat that can't handle some adverse weather by design. Get something those on this board would consider a moderately capable bluewater vessel.
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Old 29-01-2006, 09:39   #5
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I agree with Sean.

Get a small boat. And after you have learned how to deal with a small boat. Work your way up to a bigger boat. Bigger boats for bluewater cruising, is expensive. We're talking tens of thousands, sometimes leaning towards hundreds of thousands of dollars here. (Read expensive).

Once you mastered the skills enough. I suggest you try a Catalina 40+. Or a CSY 44. Like you've mentioned earlier. But I warn you. This investment is not cheap. And once you bought either of these models. Or any model of sailboat. It's expensive to maintain these vessels. I'm sure Sean, or anyone with a sailboat of that footage range. Would be more than happy to post a rough estimate of how much it would cost to maintain a vessel of that size?
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Old 29-01-2006, 11:18   #6
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Our boat costs about $10,000. a year plus repairs and upgrades. If we had payments that too would be on top of that amount.
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Old 29-01-2006, 12:25   #7
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Agreed. After a complete and utter refit in the range of maybe $20-$30K on ours, we plan to spend $5K a year on maintenance. This is the bare min. amount you could get away with, and even then, many years will be closer to $10K as mentioned.
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Old 29-01-2006, 19:17   #8
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Hello every one!

It is nice to hear everyone’s constructed opinion. I’m thankful for that.
However I’m a little confused by Mr. Irwin’s $10,000 a year for maintenance. My confusion is based on the following information I received from other people. Just last week I spoke with a couple that back in 1994 they purchase a bran new 38’ British manufactured sailboat and they sailed around the world for 5 years. I asked them specific questions such as; what is easier to sail, a ketch or a single mast, what is better suited for overall sailing a full kill or a fin kill, what it too small for a family of five or too big, what size boat is recommended for single sailing and so on. However my main concern was budget, so I asked them about how much money they spend to maintain their sailboat. They told me if I get my boat in a good shape, and up to good sailing standard the boat should not need too much to maintain. They went into detail and elaborated on the maintenance issue and expenses. They told me that I will spend money in the following areas; oil change, fuel, propane, internet access, customs fees, hull it out every two to three years, food, and if something brake I need to replace it.
So, after talking to them and of course considering the other expenses my conclusion is that the focal point of sailing expenses is fuel and food unless the unexpected happens? Is that a correct analogy? I’m not planning to use the marinas very often and pay for dock fees. So realistically what should I expect to spend while I’m sailing with my wife and my three girls ages 10, 6, and 4. My opinion is that depends on our each individual lifestyle, is that correct? I would definitely would like to hear a second opinion, and views from others. Thank you once again!
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Old 29-01-2006, 19:32   #9
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Hello Mr. Sullivan.

We are planning to leave sometime next year, perhaps right after my girls finish the school year. I'm sailing from Portland Oregon, down to the Bahamas, and the coast of Venezuela, the beautiful country when I was born.
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Old 29-01-2006, 20:07   #10
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My boat costs are $5000. for a slip, $2000. for haul out and winter storage. $1500. for insurance for a total of $8500. per year. Everything else is above that. When we start cruising we will not have slip and storage fees bot I would think we will have more maintance costs due to full time use. This past summer We had very close to $10000. in equipment break down. That cost would be much more if I hired the work done.
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Old 29-01-2006, 20:20   #11
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Quote:
Soon2bsailor once whispered in the wind:
I'm sailing from Portland Oregon, down to the Bahamas, and the coast of Venezuela, the beautiful country when I was born.
Good grief, another Portland, Oregon sailor.

Anyway, if you haven't already, you should study the articles, letters, wisdom and advice that gets shared at the 48 North and Latitude 38 websites. Both periodicals are normally available for free at the local West Marine stores.

Also, starting next year on an exciting voyage like that could be a challenge with little sailing experience. Before you buy any boat, you might consider a week long course with San Juan Sailing up in Bellingham, Washington, and get your first sailing certifications and experience. You might also join Island Sailing Club, and sail 20-36 foot boats in their fleet as much as you want to gain expereince (and they have boats in Portland as well as three locations in Washington). In fact, doing your first certification at Island Sailing Club (in Portland) would be better than in Bellingham (20 foot boat instead of a 32-38).

Additionally, you may want to consider doing a leg of a voyage as a paid guest/student with http://www.mahina.com/ which does off-shore passage instruction.

I know you're thinking that you'll be doing mostly coastal cruising, but even the trip just from Portland down to San Francisco can/has been pretty major in the white knuckle experience, even for cruisers who have spent years sailing the San Juan Islands.

John Neal at http://www.mahina.com also does inexpensive consulting for those looking for ocean-worthy craft, and since your time schedule is short, his advice could be pretty valuable. (After you have some sailing experience.)

Good luck!

Jim H
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Old 30-01-2006, 03:13   #12
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S2BSAILOR:
The two boats are not at all comparable.
1. Irwinsailor’s “Amanda Faye” is an “old” 61 footer - about 2.5 to 4.0 times more boat than a 38 footer.
2. A well-found “new” boat has a few years of relatively “repair-free” operation, requiring only routine maintenance, whereas, even a well-found, used boat will be a little “tired” here and there.
3. One man’s idea of adequate maintenance may not come close to matching another’s standards.
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Old 30-01-2006, 05:17   #13
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As a point of reference in this conversation on maintenance costs, The boat in question is a 1983 10,500 lb 38 footer. (For the part maintenance costs are proportionate to displacement). I spend roughly $1,800 per year on maintenance and insurance, and an additional $1,000 to $2,000 per year in upgrades and deferred maintenance.

The cruise that is being discussed is roughly the equivillent of 3 to 5 years of normal wear and tear on a normal coastal cruising boat and so budgeting should parallel the maintenance expectations for a period of that length. Of course all deferred maintenance should be done before setting out since maintaining reliability at sea is a key element in prudent seamanship.

Jeff
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Old 03-02-2006, 20:20   #14
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The prime reason that older sailboats can be bought cheap is deferred maintenance by the prior owners.

The British couple you were talking to are allowing the net value of their boat to decline by putting off maintenace to stay ahead of repairs.

This can include:
-- not waiting till the sails are thrashed,
-- not waiting until the electrical connnections corrode,
-- not waiting until a piece of standing rigging breaks,
-- and so on.

Budget at least 5% of the purchase price to maintain, and some years will be 10%. This assumes that you've adressed all the deferred work when you bought the boat. We keep our 1983 that way, take some silver in the point to point races, and find her easier to sail than many others her age.
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Old 04-02-2006, 08:24   #15
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I always find the discussion of maintenance costs fascinating.

People throw around a 5 to 10% figure of "purchase price" to maintain the boat without any idea what the purchase price was. How can you do that?

I believe the best way to figure you annual maintenance cost is to find the cost of a new boat of similar build and figure you will spend .5-1% of that amount.

As an example, a new Tartan 41 costs roughly $450k, so figure $2250 to $4500 per year for maintenance. Do you spend that much every year to maintain it? Of course not, but over ten or twenty years you will spend $22 to $90k. Sails, sheets, halyards, oil, filters, pumps and parts,,,,

So compare that to a used Tartan 41 that you buy for $250k or $150k or $75k. What percent of the purchase price do you use? Who knows, it makes no sense to talk about purchase price, it only makes sense to talk about a constant. That constant is the new replacement cost. Next year the new replacement cost may be $500k.

Soon2besailor, your answer is $3-6k for annual maintenance after you have all systems in good working order. Sails, rigging, engine, electrical, plumbing. When you buy an older boat, realize you will be doing a re-fit to get to everything in good working order. Figure this in your purchase price.

Good luck
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