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Old 28-02-2015, 08:08   #31
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Re: MOODY 54-DS V/S beneteau-OCEANIS 55

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
No prop wash on the rudders, so you don't have any steering control until you have a certain amount of way on.

With a single rudder close behind the prop, you get steering control from much lower speed, because the stream of water from the prop hits the rudder.

It's a very serious disadvantage of twin rudders, but can be compensated with thrusters.
Jeepers Mr. Wizard.... I never thought of that. That's a good point.
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Old 28-02-2015, 08:14   #32
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Re: MOODY 54-DS V/S beneteau-OCEANIS 55

really? what would you say that about the Amel? i like what you're saying when you say "if one spends most of their time in a far god forsaken anchorage then go for the Amel" (i'm paraphrasing)...... please explain
is it the solidity of the build? the reliability of all systems?
i've never stepped on board an Amel, but i've started studying this boat as well...... cheers !!
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Old 28-02-2015, 09:02   #33
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Re: MOODY 54-DS V/S beneteau-OCEANIS 55

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
No prop wash on the rudders, so you don't have any steering control until you have a certain amount of way on.

With a single rudder close behind the prop, you get steering control from much lower speed, because the stream of water from the prop hits the rudder.

It's a very serious disadvantage of twin rudders, but can be compensated with thrusters.
i.e. the Bene Dock and Go system, with synchronized thruster and 360 deg rotating sail drive

The revolutionary Dock&Go / Sailing Yachts - BENETEAU
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Old 28-02-2015, 09:14   #34
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Re: MOODY 54-DS V/S beneteau-OCEANIS 55

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Originally Posted by alexxx View Post
really? what would you say that about the Amel? i like what you're saying when you say "if one spends most of their time in a far god forsaken anchorage then go for the Amel" (i'm paraphrasing)...... please explain
is it the solidity of the build? the reliability of all systems?
i've never stepped on board an Amel, but i've started studying this boat as well...... cheers !!
Not quite what I said.

If you do spend your time in far flung anchorages (not necessarily god forsaken), then you will often find that the only other boat there is an Amel.

That is significant. Amels do seem to be used for long distance cruising and a lot of them do a lot of miles.

I am not an expert on Amels. But I think one of the important things is it was designed by a guy (Amel himself) who spent a lot of time cruising to far flung places. All the systems are designed to be reliable and maintainable by the owner of the boat when in far flung places beyond the reach of FedEx etc. The boats are solid, well laid out, have hand holds where you need them and are very praticle for long distance cruising as well as being confortable both at anchor, underway and (relatively speaking) also when hove to during a storm.

They are not so good as a dock side condo. Other boats are better for that.

However, that fake teak on the deck is really horrible (even if it is practical) .........
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Old 28-02-2015, 09:20   #35
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Re: MOODY 54-DS V/S beneteau-OCEANIS 55

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Not quite what I said.

If you do spend your time in far flung anchorages (not necessarily god forsaken), then you will often find that the only other boat there is an Amel.

That is significant. Amels do seem to be used for long distance cruising and a lot of them do a lot of miles.

I am not an expert on Amels. But I think one of the important things is it was designed by a guy (Amel himself) who spent a lot of time cruising to far flung places. All the systems are designed to be reliable and maintainable by the owner of the boat when in far flung places beyond the reach of FedEx etc. The boats are solid, well laid out, have hand holds where you need them and are very praticle for long distance cruising as well as being confortable both at anchor, underway and (relatively speaking) also when hove to during a storm.

They are not so good as a dock side condo. Other boats are better for that.

However, that fake teak on the deck is really horrible (even if it is practical) .........
I agree with all you said above except your statement about "fake teak" Real teak is far more horrible, much hotter underfoot in sunny climes and costs a fortune to upkeep or replace etc...

You can modify the fake teak into a very nice looking deck by painting it "desert sand" and the caulk lines white...

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Old 28-02-2015, 09:42   #36
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Re: MOODY 54-DS V/S beneteau-OCEANIS 55

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Jeepers Mr. Wizard.... I never thought of that. That's a good point.
LOL -- don't mention it

Incidentally, this same phenomenon affects, to a lesser degree, many boats with saildrive, because saildrive props are usually further forward and further from the rudder.

Your boat and mine, with shaft drive and the prop quite close to the rudder, have the advantage of a lot of steering control at low speed.

I'm sure you use this trick, too -- on my boat, I can move off a dock practically sideways, by using reverse rudder, burst of power, and bow thruster. The propeller acting on the hard-over rudder acts almost like a stern thruster. You do this, right? Just put the rudder hard over as if you're steering into the dock. Actuate the bow thruster and give a burst of power in ahead at the same time. The wash from the prop is largely diverted sideways, and in combination with the bow thruster, the boat moves almost directly sideways.

This is incredibly useful when trying to shoehorn a big boat into a marina designed for smaller boats. Also impresses the crowd which always gathers to watch big boats crash and fail in docking maneuvers, out of schadenfreude. These crowds used to unnerve me, but now I actually enjoy showing off in front of them. Especially when I'm single-handed

People with shaft drive boats with large rudders like ours often sneer at people who want stern thrusters or "easy-dock" or whatever that rotating saildrive is called. Well, they just don't understand. They have simply never tried to dock a big boat with a saildrive, or God forbid, twin rudders. It can be really hairy. I think that "easy-dock" system is the dog's b's, for big boats with saildrives. I prefer shaft drive, but if forced to take a sail drive, I would certainly want this feature.
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Old 28-02-2015, 09:48   #37
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Re: MOODY 54-DS V/S beneteau-OCEANIS 55

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Originally Posted by med View Post
Not quite what I said.

If you do spend your time in far flung anchorages (not necessarily god forsaken), then you will often find that the only other boat there is an Amel.

That is significant. Amels do seem to be used for long distance cruising and a lot of them do a lot of miles.

I am not an expert on Amels. But I think one of the important things is it was designed by a guy (Amel himself) who spent a lot of time cruising to far flung places. All the systems are designed to be reliable and maintainable by the owner of the boat when in far flung places beyond the reach of FedEx etc. The boats are solid, well laid out, have hand holds where you need them and are very praticle for long distance cruising as well as being confortable both at anchor, underway and (relatively speaking) also when hove to during a storm.

They are not so good as a dock side condo. Other boats are better for that.

However, that fake teak on the deck is really horrible (even if it is practical) .........
I agree! Amels are made for and are bought by a very particular kind of sailor. Not the yacht club types who buy most "high end" boats. Amel sailors are hard core long distance no-nonsense sailors who don't care about flash and don't care about the dock-side condo aspect. I think you have described it well. For many such sailors, I think hardly any other boat will be really satisfactory. And used Amels are a fantastic bargain, compared to normal "high end boats" in my opinion. The only problem with this is that for many sailors, even long distance cruisers, the "dock side condo" aspect is not meaningless. Nor the aesthetic side. For that reason, Amels are not for everyone.

The only problem
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Old 28-02-2015, 09:55   #38
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Re: MOODY 54-DS V/S beneteau-OCEANIS 55

Mr. Wizard,

My head is spinning with new knowledge. Although your docking method can't possibly be as impressive and entertaining as the Captain Ron method that we've perfected, I will try your reverse rudder parallel parking maneuver beginning this June. I've primarily used the backing away from the dock with the rudder steering the boat while giving the bow thruster a few quick bursts method. But your way sounds brilliant! But not as entertaining to our dockside audience which has come to expect more.
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Old 28-02-2015, 10:20   #39
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Re: MOODY 54-DS V/S beneteau-OCEANIS 55

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Mr. Wizard,

My head is spinning with new knowledge. Although your docking method can't possibly be as impressive and entertaining as the Captain Ron method that we've perfected, I will try your reverse rudder parallel parking maneuver beginning this June. I've primarily used the backing away from the dock with the rudder steering the boat while giving the bow thruster a few quick bursts method. But your way sounds brilliant! But not as entertaining to our dockside audience which has come to expect more.
LOL! I love that scene from Cpt. Ron. Have watched it over and over

Backing off the dock is also good -- especially if you can use prop walk. Our prop kicks to port, however, and I almost always berth port-to, so prop walk is always against me. It's a habit like getting onto a horse from the port side. Maybe I should change it and start berthing starboard-to. Backing off is the best way if you've got a strong wind blowing you on, because the wind doesn't blow the stern around like it does the bow.
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Old 28-02-2015, 10:22   #40
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Re: MOODY 54-DS V/S beneteau-OCEANIS 55

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Hi, I own a Beneteau 55. Hull Number 16 S/V Testarossa. It is a very capable yacht and while some old salts would say being a Beneteau its not really an ocean boat. I'v skippered boats across the Atlantic 4 times and have sailed around most of the Atlantic several times. I sure i'm not the most experienced person here, but... The 55 is an excellent boat. She is dry sea kindly, fast and easy to manage. We raced her from FL to Mexico last year. It was 25 to 30 on the nose the whole way. The only failure we had was the jib sheet which exploded. No one wore weather gear">foul weather gear we cooked and ate well. In the end we were first overall, first to finish and first in class. We were pushing her hard double reefed and jib rolled well up. When we bore off to cross the Gulf stream we hit 17 knots GPS speed with a steady 14 +. The point being that even pushed hard she was comfortable. BUT!!!! We spend 10 to 20+ days in port to everyday you spend at sea and that is where she really shines! Tons of room well thought out, very comfortable to live on. I have the deep keel (7'3"). I would not buy one without Dock-and-go. Anyone with experience with twin rudders knows they can be a handful in marinas. I don't have in mast furling and you have to be ready to reef early. She winds up in 8-10 at 12 your rolling up some jib. Highest wind we have had in is 35-40 which she handled fine. And as a point to the old salts... Beneteaus cross the oceans more than any other brand.

George Gamble
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I just learned about Dock and Go. How reliable is that system, and can you just go back to thruster and saildrive at 0.0 and use the rudders to get her docked, if you had to ? Even with twin rudders, which must spank the competition beating to weather.

Was looking here, what is your take on their issues, and what is the fallback plan-

Beneteau Dock N Go Problems - BeneteauOwners.com
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Old 28-02-2015, 10:33   #41
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Re: MOODY 54-DS V/S beneteau-OCEANIS 55

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I just learned about Dock and Go. How reliable is that system, and can you just go back to thruster and saildrive at 0.0 and use the rudders to get her docked, if you had to ? Even with twin rudders, which must spank the competition beating to weather.

Was looking here, what is your take on their issues, and what is the fallback plan-
Works well apparently, when everything works. I learned docking procedures alone on a 45ft light weight sailboat with very high freeboard and no bow thruster. Even now with a bow thruster, low freeboard and heavy boat, I go into a docking procedure not counting on the thing working... even though it's been completely reliable (since I replaced the switch).

But counting on the dock and go 100% of the time.... probably not a good idea. Murphys' Law.
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Old 28-02-2015, 15:07   #42
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Re: MOODY 54-DS V/S beneteau-OCEANIS 55

Dock-and-go fool proof? Not hardly... But it is an extremely reliable system. As complicated as it sounds it actually simpler than the transmission it replaced. I used mine to dock every time and only had one failure. And then it was the hub on my flex-y-fold propeller. (This is very rare) Not dock-and-go. And yes you can bypass the entire system and use it in manual as it were. ZF a German company actually makes the system. Once you've had it you'll never want to go back. I've docked my boat in places you would never get a conventional boat. The ability to stop then spin then go sideways is very handy! Btw my last sailboat was an IY-60. Narrow t bulb keel, no bow thruster and a 104 foot mast. I can back a boat and dock her! This makes it easy!!!


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Old 28-02-2015, 15:15   #43
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Re: MOODY 54-DS V/S beneteau-OCEANIS 55

And as to the dinghy garage. I love the idea... BUT.... Unless you have a really large yacht you have to remove the engine, deflate the tubes ect... Eats up a lot of room and does not make it that much easier. Plus we all know the best dinghy is the biggest dinghy you can manage! We designed and built an arch for the stern of the boat that serves three purposes. First it's davits for the dinghy. Second it's the rear attachment point for the Bimini. Third it holds the radar and sat tv domes. Click image for larger version

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Old 01-03-2015, 07:05   #44
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Re: MOODY 54-DS V/S beneteau-OCEANIS 55

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
No prop wash on the rudders, so you don't have any steering control until you have a certain amount of way on. With a single rudder close behind the prop, you get steering control from much lower speed, because the stream of water from the prop hits the rudder.
It's a very serious disadvantage of twin rudders, but can be compensated with thrusters.
How about twin props* -on a monohull- at the end of twin electric motors fed by a humongus electric diesel generator that does all the work: Washer, dryer, heater, air conditioning... ? Cheers !

*Seen somewhere, but forgot where May eliminate the need for a bow thruster ?
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Old 01-03-2015, 07:44   #45
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Re: MOODY 54-DS V/S beneteau-OCEANIS 55

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How about twin props* -on a monohull- at the end of twin electric motors fed by a humongus electric diesel generator that does all the work: Washer, dryer, heater, air conditioning... ? Cheers !

*Seen somewhere, but forgot where May eliminate the need for a bow thruster ?
Twin props means more drag, more expense, more maintenance. But so many advantages . . . .

A number of the beautiful Moody gentleman's motor sailers of the '70's could be ordered with twin screws, like the Moody 66 Grenadier from 1974:

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Diesel-electric theoretically allows you twin screws without increasing the machinery inside -- an intriguing idea.

I wouldn't give up the bow thruster, however, which is useful even with twin screws.
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