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Old 11-11-2013, 07:35   #46
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Re: Mono or Multi Hull for Cruising the Med

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Originally Posted by Lambretta View Post
I am brand new to this forum and would appreciate some guidance as I am looking to invest in a either a (approx) 40ft mono or Cat to cruise the Med over the next ten years plus. I live in Cape Town and am looking to buy a yacht (probably in SA but open to looking in the Med ) and keep it in the Med and it will be wonderful to go and explore the Med for a couple of weeks in the Northern hemisphere summer (our Winter!!) and then when I retire in about 5 years I will then do it for much longer preriods!! My thinking is that I will then also invite friends of ours (my wife and I) to join us for a week or two over this time ...... I dont want 6 people on the yacht! Or my grown up kids (2) ........ that is the background
What appeals to me about the monohulls that I have looked at so far is

1. Ease of sailing (for my wife and I) as some of our friends will lack sailing experience.
2. Ease of berthing space required. I beleive this can me an issue in a lots of ports in the Med (some countries more than others)
3. I am experienced in sailing mono's
4. Price (I realise this is a huge variable but it appears that monos for age and condition offer way better value than cats.)

What appeals about Cats (and then potentially negatives of monos)

1. Stability at mooring
2. Deck space
3. Saloon space
4. Ease of berthing due to two motors (yes a bow thruster will make a big difference to the mono)
5. Ease of launching and accessing an inflatible tender with a small motor (davets etc)
6. Saloon above the water line with better views and visabliity
7. Sailing and motoring speed
8. Two motors
9. Stability at sea

I am not looking for more than two cabins but three will also be fine and the main cabin must have seperate head and shower etc. and offer nice space and comfort!! . I realise that some cats come with the "owners edition" layout etc.

This post probably has much more to be said ....... but I guess I will leave that to the members as I am sure I have missed a ton of stuff!!!

I am open to specific yacht recommendations too!!

Thanks

Steve

Ps ......... Lambretta is my nickname from my Italian friends ....... long story!!
I think you've got the pros and cons about nailed


The only thing I would add to this is to caution you not to compare cats and monos length by length -- they are not comparable like this, because a cat has two hulls, and a mono has one. You might as well say a 40 foot cat is equal to an 80 foot mono, since the cat has 2 x 40 feet of hulls, but this is also not right, since the hulls in a cat are much narrower. The truth is in between -- a 40 foot cruising cat is probably comparable to a 48 foot or maybe 50 foot cruising mono. To compare like for like you need to compare comparable hull volumes, probably the old Thames Measure Gross Registered Tonnage calculation would be ideal for this.

So once you are comparing like for like in terms of hull volume, you will see that many of the differences disappear. Monos are not a better value, for a comparable hull volume. The cost is about the same for like quality, age, etc., for the same hull volume.

Sailing characteristics are somewhat different between monos and cats. A performance-oriented cruising cat, lightly loaded, can be extremely fast, faster than the comparable mono. So your 40 foot cat, if it can be described like this, might be faster than a 50 foot mono. Although I am a mono guy in general, I would absolutely own a hot performance cat, if I had a chance, and the money. That would be something fascinating, which can't be done in any kind of mono. Something like a Gunboat, for example -- wow.

Conversely, a non-performance, cruising-oriented cat like a Lagoon, especially if it is loaded down with cruising gear, might be even much slower than the comparable-by-hull-volume mono.

One real advantage of monos is that they are not as much affected by load. That is because they have ballast. So a given amount of load will be a smaller percentage of the total mass of mono of a given hull volume, compared to a cat of the same hull volume. In other words, a 48-foot or 50-foot mono can carry a whole lot more load -- probably several times more -- than a 40 foot cat can, without a noticeable affect on performance.

People say cats don't point as well, but that has not been my experience. Loaded cruising monos rarely point any better, in my experience. A hot performance cat with daggerboards points excellently.

People argue viciously about whether or not cats or monos are safer in a storm (the millionth thread on this petered out only recently). Statistics show no difference.


So, my advice is just buy what appeals to you on a gut level. There are fewer practical differences than you might have thought otherwise. For me it would boil down to, very simply:

Cats plus:

Stable platform
No heel on a long passage
Salon above the waterline; view (big plus)
Stability at anchor
Redundant propulsion (big plus)

Cats minus:

Hard to berth in a marina, and very hard in some places
Ugly (from my totally subjective point of view)
Sensitive to load
Motion not to my taste (totally subjective)
Don't like the arrangement of interior spaces as much (totally subjective)

Mono plus:

Easier to berth in a marina
Motion more pleasant to my (totally subjective) taste
Interior volumes work better for me (totally subjective)
Load carrying ability

Mono minus:

Heel at sea (not a minus for me except on long passages, but then a big minus)
Salon sole below the waterline (big minus for me, but mitigated with deck salon designs, like on my boat)
No redundant mechanical propulsion


In my opinion, nearly all of the other stuff are no advantage or disadvantage of either type -- cost, performance, safety, etc., etc., etc., will be all the same if you compare like for like according to hull volume.
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Old 11-11-2013, 14:19   #47
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Re: Mono or Multi Hull for Cruising the Med

The answer is simple.

Which one does the wife prefer?
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Old 11-11-2013, 22:09   #48
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Re: Mono or Multi Hull for Cruising the Med

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Originally Posted by Wraith_Mac View Post
That wind gust must have come from nowhere, no warning at all, just sudden like!! Just mild conditions amid the squalls.
Cheers,
Mac

Yep..

Eyyyy... Another coastie.. I am at KV.
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Old 12-11-2013, 00:50   #49
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Re: Mono or Multi Hull for Cruising the Med

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Cats minus:
Hard to berth in a marina, and very hard in some places

Mono plus:
Easier to berth in a marina.
That would explain why my marina reduced the cost of my berth as a mono was unable to use while it was simple for me to berth there



I will admit that berthing a cat in Norway is more difficult as most berths are set up for narrow monohulls
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Old 12-11-2013, 02:02   #50
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Re: Mono or Multi Hull for Cruising the Med

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Originally Posted by ozskipper View Post
Yep..

Eyyyy... Another coastie.. I am at KV.

Regularly transit on the Great Circle Route from Budgie to the unnatural wonders of Mingara Hot Pools, usually in winter southerlies. LOL

Lambretta,
When we were looking to buy a cat in Turkey we used a 'time/cost' model similar to Palarran's to justify leaving it based there.
We have a few academic friends who spend 12 weeks or so every year 'researching' in Europe [land bound] and figured that amount of use and mobility would justify the costs involved for a few years.
For a family of five in their own mobile home it was a real positive for us.
Having the three kids in a separate hull a bigger one.
We didn't consider a mono, no reason you shouldn't of course.
After my wife's car accident, sailing, for at least 3-5yrs, was precluded so we wouldn't buy and leave the cat there with negligible use.
Depreciation and deterioration were major factors, no point in bringing it home either to sit on a mooring, in our case.
Depreciation, the 'hidden' cost, has been highlighted before as well, I'll add deterioration to that for consideration.
Everyone's means are different, perhaps with a mono having lower storage costs you may see that as away to go but for even 2-3 weeks use a year we concluded not buying yet was the best choice.
Ultimately it may come down to DOJ's comment but whichever way you go it's a nice position to be in if you can even consider which boat you should leave in the Med.
Cheers,
Mac
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Old 12-11-2013, 02:43   #51
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Re: Mono or Multi Hull for Cruising the Med

Lambretta, Im currently in the planning stage to upgrade my Catalina 27 to something more bluewater savy, and have pondered the same mono vs cat question.

There is an excellent article in Sails June 2012 magazine that highlights the pros and cons.
Sails Magazine - On the tail of the cats
On the tail of the cats

There’s no denying it, sailing catamarans are exploding in popularity. It has been a world-wide phenomenon so pronounced that when the global financial crisis gripped the world and yachts stopped selling overnight, catamaran sales showed little decline. As a traditional monohull sailor, Nancy Knudsen went searching for the reasons for this curious phenomenon.

I envy your plan for occasional med cruising until you can go afloat full time in 5 years. If it were me, I would also purchase now (unless your still undecided on mono vs cat). A quick review of used cats on yachtingworld.com shows depriciation to be minimal. Even after 8 years, many 2005 cats are just less than brand new boats (granted they are stocked with upgrades and needed equipment). I surmise the high value is due to the overall demand for cats, and the high demand for used cats given the high cost of a brand new boat.

I agree with most prior posts there is no argument for a better boat type for a newbie sailor. After all the valid pros and cons you've stated, it really comes down to you and your wife/family preferance and $$. I read last week from a multi-hull brocher in Florida that you should expect to pay 30-50% more for cats over monos, and Id have to agree this is true for price/moorage/storage/maintenance/marina/ and possibly running costs. That said it may not be worth the cost of moorage/stoorage/deterioration to you to keep the boat in the Med?

I leave you this question: How many sailors have switched from mono to multi-hull or cats, and how many have done the reverse or switched back?
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Old 12-11-2013, 05:56   #52
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The bumfuzzles went from a cat to a mono but said clearly that it was for $$ reasons.

We went from mono to cat and will not go back unless we head to the high latitudes one day. It would be a steel mono, not GRP, for those icy areas.

My old man did 2 RTWs on his own monos and is now on a cat. On asking him what he reckons about the difference, he said,"Of course cats are better. If that is not obvious, ya gotta be an idiot or just not sailed on enough of them yet."

Admittedly he is on a relatively high performance cat now but has delivered quite a few overloaded ex-charter cats as well.

So brunettes or blondes?
Petrol or diesel?
Dagger boards or fixed keels?
Galley up or galley down?
Outboards or inboards?

Surely it is time to move on to the more important questions!
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Old 12-11-2013, 06:48   #53
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Re: Mono or Multi Hull for Cruising the Med

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Originally Posted by Jado27 View Post
I read last week from a multi-hull brocher in Florida that you should expect to pay 30-50% more for cats over monos, and Id have to agree this is true for price/moorage/storage/maintenance/marina/ and possibly running costs. That said it may not be worth the cost of moorage/stoorage/deterioration to you to keep the boat in the Med?
I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but cats are not more expensive than monos if you compare like hull volume to like hull volume.

It's like comparing two houses, each of which are 60 feet wide. "But that one is much more expensive! And it has more space!" And it is 60 feet deep instead of 30. You can't compare houses just by their width, any more than you can compare two boats by their lengths, if the boats are configured differently.

Berthing a cat is even cheaper than a mono -- like hull volume for like hull volume -- if you are charged by the linear foot. If you are charged according to some formula, then it usually works out to be equal.

One things making cats more expensive, even comparing like for like, is redundant propulsion (but that is worth it!).

One thing making them cheaper than monos, even comparing like for like, is that they are lighter for a given hull volume. So no keel and less materials.

This kind of cancels out the extra cost of propulsion machinery.
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Old 12-11-2013, 14:50   #54
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Re: Mono or Multi Hull for Cruising the Med

Hello Lambretta,
Most points to take into consideration have been mentioned already above. There is however one point that was already mentioned that I want to point out again. It depends on the type of cruising you are planning. I f you want to visit and spend time in old Italian/Greek/etc (fishing) harbours, a catamaran is surely not the best option. Narrow harbours and moorings were the standard from the Roman time till somewhere last century. By going for a cat you limit your cruising possibilities to modern marinas.
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Old 12-11-2013, 19:06   #55
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Re: Mono or Multi Hull for Cruising the Med

Hi Sailor

This is an interesting point you have made. I have seen a few of the types of harbour you refer to. Are you saying that there is not even the option of mooring outside and taking the duck into the harbour.
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Old 13-11-2013, 02:34   #56
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Re: Mono or Multi Hull for Cruising the Med

I've never come across a harbor I was unable to enter in the Med because we are a cat. The occasional small harbor we wouldn't fit in, but then either would a mono over 8m with over 1m draft.
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Old 13-11-2013, 03:40   #57
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Re: Mono or Multi Hull for Cruising the Med

Hi Johm,

Of course this "duck solution" is always possible and is by far the cheapest solution also.
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