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Old 23-07-2013, 04:44   #106
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I was trying to point out that this fin versus long keel ( to generalise the issue ) is as much about national proclivities as it is about what is really suitable. Dave
Simply put heavier boats having a narrower beam, long keel (more wetted surface) and proper (high) bal/disp ratio and angle of vanishing stability, disp/len ratio, and reasonable sail area, etc will stand up to bad weather much better and recover from a worse knockdown than your average fin keel/spade rudder boat with low bal/disp ratio etc if the boat is handle properly by the skipper and crew.

Example:

https://www.google.com/search?q=angl...e7%3B509%3B462
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Old 23-07-2013, 05:24   #107
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I have 2 cars from 2002. An Audi A4 Avant Quattro v6 with 160,000km and a Merc SL55AMG with 40,000.

The Merc would have cost perhaps 6 times as much as the Audi when new (owned them 3 & 2 years)

The condition of both cars reflects their mileage.

I expect that the merc will be around for a long time to come whilst the Audi will eventually get scrapped.

Is my prediction for my cars future based on the build quality? Yes and no.....

For logical reasons the Merc has been "babied" and the Audi just used. If the Audi was treated the same, then it too could live on just as long.

Btw the Audi has been way more reliable

So, so what Dave says
160,000km the Audis only just broken in !!!

That Audis are great cars easily better then BMW or merc. The 2.5 turbo diesel Quattro avant , with the ecu chipped was a license killer when I had it. Blew the doors off most similar petrols

You can keep Audis going forever

Bit then Audi and merc are both quality cars.

This is the thing I've a passat diesel with 240 .000km !

DAve
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Old 23-07-2013, 05:31   #108
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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post

Simply put heavier boats having a narrower beam, long keel (more wetted surface) and proper (high) bal/disp ratio and angle of vanishing stability, disp/len ratio, and reasonable sail area, etc will stand up to bad weather much better and recover from a worse knockdown than your average fin keel/spade rudder boat with low bal/disp ratio etc if the boat is handle properly by the skipper and crew.
No there is no evidence of that. Modern dynamic sailing techniques , better hydrodynamic control surfaces , lower wetted area ( which is always better ) means that modern boats are just ax weatherly . The proof is in the eating. In northern European or crossing the Atlantic the modern underbody reigns absolutely supreme and the weathers the same or arguably more unstable. There is no desire to produce such boatys as you describe , nor are modern boats foundering , on fact the tendency is for the boat to survive while the crew bail out .

Old doesn't mean good things move on computer aided hydrodynamic design has improved things modern materials has improved things.

Bit of course Teaky leakys look " nautical" to a certain crowd. , whereas composites , Kevlar carbon etc don't !!!

It's just like cars.

Dave
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Old 23-07-2013, 05:40   #109
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Dave I just don't understand how you feel that you can compete with Thomm's book reading experience as applied from his years of hobie cat sailing.
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Old 23-07-2013, 05:55   #110
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Why do you say 29% is bad , ( and low wetted surface is BAD !!) I have seaworthiness I have read it cover to cover several times. I've read Elements of yacht design etc, Marchal is getting very dated.

I mean this is a RCD Category A boat , its meets certain standards for scantlings , etc.

Dave
Another consideration when discussing balast ratio is how the keel/balast is designed. How would you compare a 29% ratio that has 6 foot draft and a bulb at the bottom with a 40% ratio with a 4 foot draft that has most of the weight of the keel right next to, or inside, the hull?
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Old 23-07-2013, 06:00   #111
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
It's just like cars. Dave
Except I couldn't find a single long keeled yacht at last years Southampton Boat Show, they were all fin or some variant on lifting type.

Those who dream of long keels, narrow low cabins and wet decks are running out of options.

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Old 23-07-2013, 06:11   #112
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Except I couldn't find a single long keeled yacht at last years Southampton Boat Show, they were all fin or some variant on lifting type.

Those who dream of long keels, narrow low cabins and wet decks are running out of options.

Pete
Are there builders still around doing them except for Island Packet and Cabo Rico?
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Old 23-07-2013, 06:31   #113
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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[...] nor are modern boats foundering , on fact the tendency is for the boat to survive while the crew bail out.
And why do you think this is? Some suggestions:
  • Sailors these days are setting out without the necessary experience
  • The availability of EPIRB (etc) makes calling for help much easier
  • The modern boat is less sea-kindly and the crew can't take the physical abuse they are being subjected to, where an old-style boat would take better care of the crew
I would guess that it's a combination of all three. But that's just a guess.
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Old 23-07-2013, 06:37   #114
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

i LOVE my old pos brick--it handles perfect in high --yes HIGH winds and tracks perfect. is stable and solid under me in a quartering sea. even in 60 kt chubascos.

i didnt go by any numbers or paperwork search--i went for this one on looks and feel.

i am comfortable after an 80 hour bash..how bout you--is your nice new production boat comfy in quartering seas and very high winds, or do you have to put her to bed until winds die down and seas flatten out.....can you cook in a storm at sea?? i can.......

just because i cannot be there first to chill the beer and wine doesnt make my boat bad fro cruising....it actually makes it great--err, perfect for cruising.

by the way---being there for cold beer isnt part of my cruising idealogy. i will find someplace with many fewer people.....and get there when i get there....

no, formosas were never production boats--every one is different from the rest. no mass production
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Old 23-07-2013, 06:49   #115
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
No there is no evidence of that. Modern dynamic sailing techniques , better hydrodynamic control surfaces , lower wetted area ( which is always better ) means that modern boats are just ax weatherly . The proof is in the eating. In northern European or crossing the Atlantic the modern underbody reigns absolutely supreme and the weathers the same or arguably more unstable. There is no desire to produce such boatys as you describe , nor are modern boats foundering , on fact the tendency is for the boat to survive while the crew bail out .

Old doesn't mean good things move on computer aided hydrodynamic design has improved things modern materials has improved things.

Bit of course Teaky leakys look " nautical" to a certain crowd. , whereas composites , Kevlar carbon etc don't !!!

It's just like cars.

Dave
Well Dave, you have hit the nail on the head. I have said for years half the sailors out on the water think they are driving a car!

It's not just like cars. First, the rudder doesn't have total control like your steering wheel. Second, a boat travels over a different surface on different days. If there is bad weather you cannot just pull over at the nearest restaurant, etc

Did you actually say lower wetted area is better? I know you didn't mean that if so you have lost it totally. A small racing catamaran has very little wetted surface and in bad weather it has almost zero defense. If you really believe that lower wetted surface is better, there is no need to argue because you wil never understand.
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Old 23-07-2013, 06:51   #116
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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i LOVE my old pos brick--it handles perfect in high --yes HIGH winds and tracks perfect. is stable and solid under me in a quartering sea. even in 60 kt chubascos.

i didnt go by any numbers or paperwork search--i went for this one on looks and feel.

i am comfortable after an 80 hour bash..how bout you--is your nice new production boat comfy in quartering seas and very high winds, or do you have to put her to bed until winds die down and seas flatten out.....can you cook in a storm at sea?? i can.......

just because i cannot be there first to chill the beer and wine doesnt make my boat bad fro cruising....it actually makes it great--err, perfect for cruising.

by the way---being there for cold beer isnt part of my cruising idealogy. i will find someplace with many fewer people.....and get there when i get there....

no, formosas were never production boats--every one is different from the rest. no mass production
Every one is different from the rest...
Yes, back in the 80's when I worked as a Yacht Broker we discovered that several of the Formosa/Yankee Clipper boats that we imported had been built with "slurry ballast".
Slurry was a technique that they used in which the builder would dump scrap steel, car batteries and all manor of detritus into the bilge pour some resin over it to keep it somewhat in place and then cap it with a thin layer of lead so that it looked like a lead casting.
I will say that the abundant teak that you could see inside the cabin was very nice.
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Old 23-07-2013, 06:54   #117
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Dave I just don't understand how you feel that you can compete with Thomm's book reading experience as applied from his years of hobie cat sailing.
Don,

He cannot compete with me. I have too much experience and I can apply what I read. I learned sailing from books and racing. (and have beaten some of the best catamaran sailors in the US)

I have repaired complex computer, electronic, and hydraulic systems (flight simulators, etc) using the tech manuals alone.

You guys can all get together and agree that night is day or that a boat with less wetted surface than another is better in heavy weather, but that does not make it so. I'm sorry, you cannot change physics

Tom
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Old 23-07-2013, 07:00   #118
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Don,

He cannot compete with me. I have too much experience and I can apply what I read. I learned sailing from books and racing. (and have beaten some of the best catamaran sailors in the US)

I have repaired complex computer, electronic, and hydraulic systems (flight simulators, etc) using the tech manuals alone.

You guys can all get together and agree that night is day or that a boat with less wetted surface than another is better in heavy weather, but that does not make it so. I'm sorry, you cannot change physics

Tom
Well that changes everything!
(picture me on my knees bowing in submission while endlessly chanting "I am weak, you are strong".
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Old 23-07-2013, 07:02   #119
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

resin, hell--my ballast is cement, with whatever was in yard. works well and boat is solid. handles well in huge winds and big seas. designed for trade winds cruising, and does exactly what it was designed to do , and the reputations are due to those who mostly have yet to sail one even once.
the rumor about batteries in the ballast is wrong...batteries had too much value to be put into ballast.
this is what makes reputations exist--rumors...rodlmao--
try it, you may like it. comfortable cruising AND can tolerate huge winds... go figger... amazing what the old style designs were designed to actually go and do.
having sweet lines isnt only an aesthetic advantage--helps in facing seas.....
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Old 23-07-2013, 07:03   #120
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Don,

He cannot compete with me. I have too much experience and I can apply what I read. I learned sailing from books and racing. (and have beaten some of the best catamaran sailors in the US) What was that experience on cruising boats again? Seems to me you feel that hobie cats are enough. You don't have any experience on the boats that you post your expert old school thoughts on.

I have repaired complex computer and hydraulic systems (flight simulators, etc) using the technical manuals alone. What the heck does this have to do with anything?

You guys can all get together and agree that night is day or that a boat with less wetted surface than another is better in heavy weather, but that does not make it so. I'm sorry, you cannot change physics The physic according to you is that only some 20+ year old book writer knows them.

Tom
To some it doesn't matter how many post real experience, it can not stand up to others book reading.


It isn't going to matter much longer because if you go shopping there are fewer and fewer of the book boat tanks around.
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