Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-07-2013, 19:45   #91
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
You may not want to do much driving after being up for umpteen hours. With a boat that has tons of wetted surface, you can go below etc after setting the ole windvane and know it will hold it's line.
That's what they have crews for! The single hander will have an AP (they would have a windvane, but their boats are sailed just too fast).

Either boat will do fine as long as she is sailed by a driver who knows how to sail her.

Go fast (not too fast) in the fast boat; go slow (not too slow) in the slow one.

The point is that one can slow down a fast boat but one can not make a pig fly. Offset somewhat by the fact that many heavier cruising boats will take heavy weather pounding much better than many lighter cruising boats.

b.
__________________

__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2013, 19:56   #92
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

I think it is worth noticing that boatyards that have been around awhile have also moved by now into the less displacement / finer appendages area. Just look at new HRs, Oysters, Rustlers, Morris.

Are they all wrong too?

b.
__________________

__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2013, 20:14   #93
Registered User
 
JK n Smitty's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hingham, MA
Boat: Catalina 310
Posts: 637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thackaringa View Post
When I crossed the Pacific I noticed that the further I got from the mainland continents the less of the modern designed boats I saw at island anchorages. They were still there but in much smaller numbers that what I saw of them in mainland marinas. The majority of the boats that were doing a Pacific crossing were purposely designed cruising boats, mostly hybrids with lenticular shaped hulls but with shorter keels. e.g. Island Packets etc. Most of these people seam to find a design that they like and then get somebody to build it for them to the standard and layout that they require.
This is probably much more of an artifact of who gets out there and who is still chained to a desk working. The same greying Americans that argue that modern designs are bad at sea and therefor buy IPs at 3 times the cost of Catalinas, Bennies or Other modem designs are the ones that are out there. Those of us that have faith in modem designs are still trying to get out there. It's much harder to get "further away from the main land" in a 2-3 week vacation.

You always have to remember that correlation does not equal causation.
__________________
http://svsmitty.wordpress.com/
JK n Smitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2013, 20:30   #94
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Cairns, Queensland. AUSTRALIA
Boat: Cheoy Lee Clipper 42
Posts: 29
Send a message via Skype™ to Thackaringa
Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Lets be honest. We all know that there are a lot of modern designed boats out there it doesn't matter what country it is from or the age of the sailors. There are a lot of them in New Zealand and in Australia, but lets face it 99% of them don't go anywhere. They are weekend coastal cruisers. Usually the only boat they have ever owned before was a "Sabot" when they were a kid. Now that they are going through their midlife crisis, they buy a yacht so that they can sip Chardonnay in the cockpit with their friends. We get a lot of boats here from New Zealand and they are not modern flying wedges. These boats are popular because that is all you see available on the showroom floors or at boat shows. Their wife loves it because it has 2 heads, a big bed, a shower a microwave, a walk in wardrobe, a big cockpit a comfortable lounge a mini bar and a mirrored disco ball. I think what most sailors that resent them don't like most about them is that they are not built up to a standard, but down to a minimum requirement. Believe me when I say, if I only wanted to cruise costal I may buy one, but I doubt it I would probably buy a multihull, that way I can have a pool table and a spar bath.
__________________
Thackaringa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2013, 20:39   #95
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thackaringa View Post
Lets be honest. We all know that there are a lot of modern designed boats out there it doesn't matter what country it is from or the age of the sailors. There are a lot of them in New Zealand and in Australia, but lets face it 99% of them don't go anywhere. They are weekend coastal cruisers. Usually the only boat they have ever owned before was a "Sabot" when they were a kid. Now that they are going through their midlife crisis, they buy a yacht so that they can sip Chardonnay in the cockpit with their friends. We get a lot of boats here from New Zealand and they are not modern flying wedges. These boats are popular because that is all you see available on the showroom floors or at boat shows. Their wife loves it because it has 2 heads, a big bed, a shower a microwave, a walk in wardrobe, a big cockpit a comfortable lounge a mini bar and a mirrored disco ball. I think what most sailors that resent them don't like most about them is that they are not built up to a standard, but down to a minimum requirement. Believe me when I say, if I only wanted to cruise costal I may buy one, but I doubt it I would probably buy a multihull, that way I can have a pool table and a spar bath.
Oh...you're such a purist...tisk...tisk
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2013, 20:56   #96
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Cairns, Queensland. AUSTRALIA
Boat: Cheoy Lee Clipper 42
Posts: 29
Send a message via Skype™ to Thackaringa
Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Yes, I think that is a very valid point.
__________________
Thackaringa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2013, 20:59   #97
Registered User
 
JK n Smitty's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hingham, MA
Boat: Catalina 310
Posts: 637
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post

Look at the ballast/disp ratio. (29%) It's pretty bad. You may actually want to read the book on Seaworthiness that you claim to own. Plus the boat has very little wetted surface. But if he sails it in the local bay or lake it will be fine.
Sailing by the numbers only is just plain stupid.

For instance, focusing on ballast to displacement ratio ignores that fact that as you go to a more "favorable" ratio your pounds per inch of immersion goes down. So those boats with good ratios can carry less safety gear. The proper application of safety gear could easily offset the B/D ratio.

By the way, the Maltese Falcon has a B/D ratio less than 5%. Is that also a poor choice in which to go to sea?

My point is that those numbers and ratios can be an OK guide but you can't blindly follow them. Have you ever read what Ted Brewer has to say about looking at the numbers too closely? He doesn't even really consider B/D ratio on his own website.
__________________
http://svsmitty.wordpress.com/
JK n Smitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2013, 20:59   #98
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don L View Post
seems just a troll overall
I like the Urban Dictionary's definition of a troll: "A person whose sole purpose in life is to seek out people to argue with on the internet over extremely trivial issues."

Trivial? Let's remember how the OP was signed off: "These are just my musings, I'm not about to buy one of the yachts above but I'm interested to hear other members experiences and thoughts."
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2013, 21:07   #99
Registered User
 
JK n Smitty's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hingham, MA
Boat: Catalina 310
Posts: 637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thackaringa View Post
Lets be honest. We all know that there are a lot of modern designed boats out there it doesn't matter what country it is from or the age of the sailors. There are a lot of them in New Zealand and in Australia, but lets face it 99% of them don't go anywhere. They are weekend coastal cruisers. Usually the only boat they have ever owned before was a "Sabot" when they were a kid. Now that they are going through their midlife crisis, they buy a yacht so that they can sip Chardonnay in the cockpit with their friends. We get a lot of boats here from New Zealand and they are not modern flying wedges. These boats are popular because that is all you see available on the showroom floors or at boat shows. Their wife loves it because it has 2 heads, a big bed, a shower a microwave, a walk in wardrobe, a big cockpit a comfortable lounge a mini bar and a mirrored disco ball. I think what most sailors that resent them don't like most about them is that they are not built up to a standard, but down to a minimum requirement. Believe me when I say, if I only wanted to cruise costal I may buy one, but I doubt it I would probably buy a multihull, that way I can have a pool table and a spar bath.
Yes and thanks to those wine sippers there will be used boats for young/adventurous people to buy in 10-20 years to sail and cruise on while we complain that the new boats are too different from what we sailed or that we don't trust wings for sails or adjustable Dana rigs or twin rudders, etc.

As I have already said in this post correlation does not equal causation. Just because the boats sit there doesn't mean that they are not capable sailing vessels.
__________________
http://svsmitty.wordpress.com/
JK n Smitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2013, 23:57   #100
Moderator
 
Paul Elliott's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,880
Images: 4
Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
To advance an argument that nothing built after 1980 or costing under 750K can't bring you around the world is simply nonsense . Its also disproved by looking out the window.
Dave, this is a straw-man argument. I've seen no such statements here.

And don't claim that extreme fin keels and rudders have no impact on sailing performance. They improve speed through lower wetted surface and improved hydrodynamic shape, but do exhibit a narrower "groove". They stall more easily and have little lateral resistance at very low speed. They also are more likely to catch kelp and lines. Most of the boats we sail, even the modern ones being discussed, have foils that aren't particulary extreme, but there is certainly a range of design, and a range of characteristics.

By the way, this narrow groove is one of the reasons that some "new" boats require different sailing styles than the "older" boats. Dead downwind a skinny blade keel has little pressure on it and less directional stability. Head up a few degrees and you now have pressure, attached flow, and control. Good thing or bad? That's up to you.
__________________
Paul Elliott, S/V VALIS - Pacific Seacraft 44 #16 - Friday Harbor, WA
www.sailvalis.com
Paul Elliott is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2013, 02:26   #101
Registered User
 
funjohnson's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Currently Indiantown FL
Boat: 37' aluminum pilothouse "Elements"
Posts: 1,847
Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thackaringa View Post
I think what most sailors that resent them don't like most about them is that they are not built up to a standard, but down to a minimum requirement.
So Cheoy Lee was building "up" to a standard when they installed that cheap cast stainless above and below their boats? How about the deck core of scrap wood from around their yard? Come on, modern boats do not have the monopoly on cost cutting measures. When was accounting invented? That is when boats started going down hill!
__________________
MJSailing.com - Written Blog
Youtube MJ sailing - Vlog
funjohnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2013, 02:50   #102
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post

Dave, this is a straw-man argument. I've seen no such statements here.

And don't claim that extreme fin keels and rudders have no impact on sailing performance. They improve speed through lower wetted surface and improved hydrodynamic shape, but do exhibit a narrower "groove". They stall more easily and have little lateral resistance at very low speed. They also are more likely to catch kelp and lines. Most of the boats we sail, even the modern ones being discussed, have foils that aren't particulary extreme, but there is certainly a range of design, and a range of characteristics.

By the way, this narrow groove is one of the reasons that some "new" boats require different sailing styles than the "older" boats. Dead downwind a skinny blade keel has little pressure on it and less directional stability. Head up a few degrees and you now have pressure, attached flow, and control. Good thing or bad? That's up to you.
I wasn't arguing for extreme designs ( well the Pogo maybe ). But today's mid market cruiser are not sold with extreme foils ( as u point out).


Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2013, 03:34   #103
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,949
Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

One of the endearing benefits of a quality boat is that it ages very well. Yes its true that they tend to get looked after better but by and large they just age better. When you compare a cheaper boat built 25 years ago to a more expensive boat you can really see the difference. Now this goes for everything made, simply put you get what you pay for in life. If you buy quality, you only cry once!
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2013, 03:42   #104
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
One of the endearing benefits of a quality boat is that it ages very well. Yes its true that they tend to get looked after better but by and large they just age better. When you compare a cheaper boat built 25 years ago to a more expensive boat you can really see the difference. Now this goes for everything made, simply put you get what you pay for in life. If you buy quality, you only cry once!
Yes but its all degrees , I've sailed several 1980s vintage Beneteaus, those that were looked after were almost like new.

That's the point what your money went into isn't necessarily on the boat.

Many would say a BMW or Mercedes is a "quality car " doesn't seem to last longer then your average VW. Quality in itself is not a precursor to long life , for a boat , I'd say maintenance is.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2013, 04:11   #105
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40
Posts: 2,842
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

Yes but its all degrees , I've sailed several 1980s vintage Beneteaus, those that were looked after were almost like new.

That's the point what your money went into isn't necessarily on the boat.

Many would say a BMW or Mercedes is a "quality car " doesn't seem to last longer then your average VW. Quality in itself is not a precursor to long life , for a boat , I'd say maintenance is.

Dave
I have 2 cars from 2002. An Audi A4 Avant Quattro v6 with 160,000km and a Merc SL55AMG with 40,000.

The Merc would have cost perhaps 6 times as much as the Audi when new (owned them 3 & 2 years)

The condition of both cars reflects their mileage.

I expect that the merc will be around for a long time to come whilst the Audi will eventually get scrapped.

Is my prediction for my cars future based on the build quality? Yes and no.....

For logical reasons the Merc has been "babied" and the Audi just used. If the Audi was treated the same, then it too could live on just as long.

Btw the Audi has been way more reliable

So, so what Dave says
__________________

__________________
S/Y Jessabbé http://www.jessabbe.com/
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale or Trade: 565+ Nautical E-Books Crimea Cruiser Classifieds Archive 10 23-06-2013 21:33



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:53.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.