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Old 22-07-2013, 16:33   #61
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Originally Posted by SaucySailoress View Post
Guys, chill. The OP asked how bendy modern production boats handle in heavy weather. That's all. If you don't know, don't answer. If you're MarkJ, then you can answer.
I am glad that someone spoke up and made it clear who gets to express their opinion and who should shut up.
Way too many people have stupid opinions and it is extremely aggravating to the experts on the internet.
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Old 22-07-2013, 16:46   #62
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Gentlemen, this has been a very interesting forum and has definitely opened up an can of worms. I think that in days past when we didn't have radios,weather fax, computers GPS and all the other things that go "PING" sailers just looked at the sky and relied on local knowledge before deciding when to go. They took a big risk. Therefore a safe boat design was paramount. "Now a days" we have all the gadgets and we put our faith in all of them and care less for safe design. We know that the weather man is never wrong so having fun is more important, safety is for boring old farts. BUT. When I am 1000 nm from land in any direction, it is dark and cold and I am doing 6 knots under dare poles in a big sea. I don't want to be wrestling with the helm for hours on end because my boats dagger keel won't hold it in a straight line as it surfs down waves. I set my wind vane,close all the hatches and put on some music as I settle down to the graceful feel of my boat coming off the back of the waves. When I do reach land I can manoeuvre in a crosswind because my boat has far less windage to blow my across the marina. I take your point that modern designed boats have 2 heads fitted. I think it's because they know when it turns bad out there you'll need them.
These types of replies are very close to trolling IMHO. They contain no facts , advance no proofs and simply provide biased opinions. I suspect the person hasn't sailed much,

Firstly a modern fin and spade design is much better dynamically . It will remain under control ,when your barn door has completely stalled or needs hydraulic arms to move it. If you want to surf , yiu need a modern underbody and control systems.

Secondly " in days past" sailing was a sport where the notion of taking the average yacht of the day across oceans labelled yiu a madman , today's production boats do it everyday. Once you got knighted for it , today you just get a marina bill. !

Yes sailors took a big risk , and they were lost in alarming numbers , modern designs in GRP are substantially stronger then old wooden " leakies"

The fact you might carry an EPIRB doesn't make you safe or unsafe or your boat either. Today arguably we have access to a yachting industry, range of products , boat models etc undreamt of 40 years ago

Then you have people visiting further and further off the beaten track , I know of GRP boats that have visited Arctic and Antarctic wasters. , you have ordinary rallies crossing to brazil , sailing up the amazon etc. we have people voyaging further and further with fewer crew. All this is testimony to better boats , better materials , better engineering and better production.

So stay inside with the wind vane on, when the lights go out , don't come whining to us !

Dave
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Old 22-07-2013, 17:21   #63
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Originally Posted by Thackaringa View Post
Gentlemen, this has been a very interesting forum and has definitely opened up an can of worms. I think that in days past when we didn't have radios,weather fax, computers GPS and all the other things that go "PING" sailers just looked at the sky and relied on local knowledge before deciding when to go. They took a big risk. Therefore a safe boat design was paramount. "Now a days" we have all the gadgets and we put our faith in all of them and care less for safe design. We know that the weather man is never wrong so having fun is more important, safety is for boring old farts. BUT. When I am 1000 nm from land in any direction, it is dark and cold and I am doing 6 knots under dare poles in a big sea. I don't want to be wrestling with the helm for hours on end because my boats dagger keel won't hold it in a straight line as it surfs down waves. I set my wind vane,close all the hatches and put on some music as I settle down to the graceful feel of my boat coming off the back of the waves. When I do reach land I can manoeuvre in a crosswind because my boat has far less windage to blow my across the marina. I take your point that modern designed boats have 2 heads fitted. I think it's because they know when it turns bad out there you'll need them.
What he said.
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Old 22-07-2013, 17:22   #64
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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(a) (...) I don't want to be wrestling with the helm for hours on end because my boats dagger keel won't hold it in a straight line as it surfs down waves. (...)

(b) (...) I set my wind vane,close all the hatches and put on some music as I settle down to the graceful feel of my boat coming off the back of the waves.(...)
Ad (a) Neither do VOR, VG, Clipper skippers. Please look at the kind of designs they drive across some very confused seas. A modern, light and fast design is easier to drive if you want to surf down the waves. Did I really say SURF DOWN THE WAVES? Look at surfboards: even the oldest ones were in fact planning vessels.

Ad (b) In a design like yours, this may be done. Note though that many cases of dramatic wipe-outs and rollovers happened when the boat was not being actively driven, or, even worse, left to 'take care of her and her crew.

My point: There is more than one design that can be sailed in bad weather and each of them takes a different set of skills, techniques and a different mindset!

I think as long as driver's skills and habits match the horse, we are all fine! Huh?

b.
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Old 22-07-2013, 17:29   #65
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Ad (a) Neither do VOR, VG, Clipper skippers. Please look at the kind of designs they drive across some very confused seas. A modern, light and fast design is easier to drive if you want to surf down the waves. Did I really say SURF DOWN THE WAVES? Look at surfboards: even the oldest ones were in fact planning vessels.

Ad (b) In a design like yours, this may be done. Note though that many cases of dramatic wipe-outs and rollovers happened when the boat was not being actively driven, or, even worse, left to 'take care of her and her crew.

My point: There is more than one design that can be sailed in bad weather and each of them takes a different set of skills, techniques and a different mindset!

I think as long as driver's skills and habits match the horse, we are all fine! Huh?

b.
You may not want to do much driving after being up for umpteen hours. With a boat that has tons of wetted surface, you can go below etc after setting the ole windvane and know it will hold it's line.
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Old 22-07-2013, 17:30   #66
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

I don't know what you are so upset about Dave. I was talking about past boat design and what was paramount on designers minds and why. I don't know what you are talking about with hydraulic barn doors or GRP boats going to Antarctica or up rivers.The subject is about boat design. I have seen the same argument in the aviation fraternity. The guy in the old slow Cessna picking his way through bad weather opposed to the guy in the 200 knot pocket rocket being picked off the side of a hill. I don't think that anybody on this forum is denying that modern designed boats can do all of these things. The discussion is about how they do it opposed to older designed boats. An old design does not have to be an old boat. These boats are still being built and sailed successfully. personally I like the hybrid of the two.
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Old 22-07-2013, 17:32   #67
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Originally Posted by Liam Wald View Post
I am glad that someone spoke up and made it clear who gets to express their opinion and who should shut up.
Way too many people have stupid opinions and it is extremely aggravating to the experts on the internet.
Experts on the internet.................Jeez!

Scoobert is that you again?

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Old 22-07-2013, 17:38   #68
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Why do so many people think that "modern" yacht designers and builders are somehow trying to cheat and endanger a naive and ill-informed public?
Statistics please...
How many people are dying each year because they mistakenly go sailing in a "modern" boat that is bendy, breaky and recklessly conceived?
It seems to me that this is an industry in which a great number of participants resist innovation and technical advancement. Why is that?
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Old 22-07-2013, 17:41   #69
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam Wald View Post
Why do so many people think that "modern" yacht designers and builders are somehow trying to cheat and endanger a naive and ill-informed public?
Statistics please...
How many people are dying each year because they mistakenly go sailing in a "modern" boat that is bendy, breaky and recklessly conceived?
It seems to me that this is an industry in which a great number of participants resist innovation and technical advancement. Why is that?
Statistics: (ouch!) With numbers like these the stats are easy to figure should a boat like this venture too far off shore in moderately bad weather

BENETEAU 331 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
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Old 22-07-2013, 17:44   #70
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Originally Posted by Thackaringa View Post
I don't know what you are so upset about Dave. I was talking about past boat design and what was paramount on designers minds and why. I don't know what you are talking about with hydraulic barn doors or GRP boats going to Antarctica or up rivers.The subject is about boat design. I have seen the same argument in the aviation fraternity. The guy in the old slow Cessna picking his way through bad weather opposed to the guy in the 200 knot pocket rocket being picked off the side of a hill. I don't think that anybody on this forum is denying that modern designed boats can do all of these things. The discussion is about how they do it opposed to older designed boats. An old design does not have to be an old boat. These boats are still being built and sailed successfully. personally I like the hybrid of the two.
Are modern boats more lively in a seaway , some are undoubtably so. But equally some are not. Also in places were sailing is a national pastime , like France and NZ , the trend has been to tranisition to faster more aggressively sailed vessels. The hydrodynamic efficiency of spade rudders is not disputed either.

If I look around at production boats and especially at builders who are not building in virtual custom numbers , I do not see " old designs" being built.

I never said all production boats are good , but in my opinion , the average decent production boat will take the owner where he or she wants to go , in reasonable comfort and safety. The proofs in the pudding , old new designs are not bring built , new designs are , and every year they continue to cross oceans.

Dave
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Old 22-07-2013, 17:44   #71
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
These types of replies are very close to trolling IMHO. They contain no facts , advance no proofs and simply provide biased opinions. I suspect the person hasn't sailed much,

Firstly a modern fin and spade design is much better dynamically . It will remain under control ,when your barn door has completely stalled or needs hydraulic arms to move it. If you want to surf , yiu need a modern underbody and control systems.

Secondly " in days past" sailing was a sport where the notion of taking the average yacht of the day across oceans labelled yiu a madman , today's production boats do it everyday. Once you got knighted for it , today you just get a marina bill. !

Yes sailors took a big risk , and they were lost in alarming numbers , modern designs in GRP are substantially stronger then old wooden " leakies"

The fact you might carry an EPIRB doesn't make you safe or unsafe or your boat either. Today arguably we have access to a yachting industry, range of products , boat models etc undreamt of 40 years ago

Then you have people visiting further and further off the beaten track , I know of GRP boats that have visited Arctic and Antarctic wasters. , you have ordinary rallies crossing to brazil , sailing up the amazon etc. we have people voyaging further and further with fewer crew. All this is testimony to better boats , better materials , better engineering and better production.

So stay inside with the wind vane on, when the lights go out , don't come whining to us !

Dave
From Wikipedia...
This article is about internet slang. For other uses, see Troll (disambiguation).

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtrl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally[3][4] or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[5] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[6]


Have you read some of your past posts?.,..especially this one.
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Old 22-07-2013, 17:49   #72
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Originally Posted by Liam Wald View Post
Why do so many people think that "modern" yacht designers and builders are somehow trying to cheat and endanger a naive and ill-informed public?
Statistics please...
How many people are dying each year because they mistakenly go sailing in a "modern" boat that is bendy, breaky and recklessly conceived?
It seems to me that this is an industry in which a great number of participants resist innovation and technical advancement. Why is that?
No only Americans , a tiny percentage of the sailing community. The rest of the world has moved on You'll see BMWs in Boston , you'll not see Pontiac's in Paris , ask yourself why , I'm not taking a pot shot , its about national sensitivities , thevUS sailing community is older , greyer and more conservative , its tends to like conservative design. sailing nations with high participation. On the other hand have transitioned to more modern designs ( which also sell quite well in thevUS )

This discussion in France would be laughed at.

Dave
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Old 22-07-2013, 17:52   #73
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Statistics: (ouch!) With numbers like these the stats are easy to figure should a boat like this venture too far off shore in moderately bad weather

BENETEAU 331 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
What would you perceive as " stats". That would affect its ability and how would you compare them with what " normal " range and on what experience or authority.

Dave
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Old 22-07-2013, 17:53   #74
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
If you were to ask me about "how a Beneteau sails" the first day I took her offshore, you would have gotton the worst feedback avalable..
Then I learned how to sail her..
<snip>
Odd thing, I dont ever remember seeing an owners manual on a sailboat to show this, and I dont believe any production boat, or any boat for that mater has ever been built where the designers sat around figuring out how to make the boat sail crappy.
I'm a firm believer in the fact that if you boast about how crappy a boat sails, you dont know how to sail that boat............
Right on Randy - I couldn't agree more. A lot of this comes down to understanding what makes your individual model boat sail best in various conditions, and both the configurations and inflection points (by condition) vary wildly by model.

As a note to toss into this thread, stating "Beneteaus sail like blah blah blah" or "Beneteaus are built like blah blah blah" is utterly pointless. I did a huge number of miles in First 42's (Randy's boat) in the 80's and 90's, and have owned a First 40.7 for nearly a dozen years. The two boats sail vastly different in general, and the way to trim them out and the amount and type of sail area to have up in various different conditions is very different. There are also substantial differences in build between the two, both good and bad in either direction. Generalizing like I see a lot of people doing here is as useless as mindlessly bashing fin keel boats for being somehow inferior. Talk specifics about specific models if you want actual information.
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Old 22-07-2013, 17:56   #75
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Right on Randy - I couldn't agree more. A lot of this comes down to understanding what makes your individual model boat sail best in various conditions, and both the configurations and inflection points (by condition) vary wildly by model.

As a note to toss into this thread, stating "Beneteaus sail like blah blah blah" or "Beneteaus are built like blah blah blah" is utterly pointless. I did a huge number of miles in First 42's (Randy's boat) in the 80's and 90's, and have owned a First 40.7 for nearly a dozen years. The two boats sail vastly different in general, and the way to trim them out and the amount and type of sail area to have up in various different conditions is very different. There are also substantial differences in build between the two, both good and bad in either direction. Generalizing like I see a lot of people doing here is as useless as mindlessly bashing fin keel boats for being somehow inferior. Talk specifics about specific models if you want actual information.
+1.

Dave
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