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Old 22-07-2013, 10:43   #46
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy View Post
I think small engines are present in a lot of production boats for reasons of economy, range and size...not because it's anticipated that you might need to drive the thing through a tidal current or waves at a harbour bar or something.

I went to a 60 hp on a similarly sized boat and threw in a four-bladed feathering prop for good measure. If I need to use the engine in earnest, I need torque, not speed. I like the Ingrid 38, but the thought of it being driven by a 24 HP engine is, I agree, farcical.
I think smaller engines were put in boat during the 60's-80's was the thought that it was a sailboat and not a motor-sailor. When it comes to diesel, the price between a 30hp and a 45hp., might only be a few thousand...you know 2 boat bucks. Most manufacturers gave the option of engine size and type to the initial purchaser.

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To suggest an oyster is more seaworthy then s beneteau is to fundamentally mix up interior quality with seaworthiness

The primary reason brands like hR and oyster are expensive is the manual labour and expensive wooden finishes that go into these yachts.

Fundamentally the underwater shapes are virtually identical and motion comfort and sea keeping are not dissimilar.

Comfort is a personal preference. I know many sailors that prefer speed and dynamic response rather then some mud -plugging long keeled disaster. The French for example tend to think that way as do the New Zealanders and their boat design reflect that

Look at the Pogo 12,5 for example these ate offshore boats.

Americans are stranded in the past when it come to sailing

Dave
I think you are over-simpifying in this case. Labor costs are much higher in Sweden than say, Taiwan. In European countries, the quality on the inside reflects the quality on the outside and lay-up. The same cannot be said on Taiwan boats, IMHO. As far as underwater shapes being identicle?...there are enough subtleties to say they are different. At least on good sailing boats. I'm not sure I have met anyone that does not prefer comfort in some degree. Well...unless they're lying...but that would never happen here...would it?
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Old 22-07-2013, 10:44   #47
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

If you look at the rize and rize of the multihull you will see it as a phenomonan that shows the old fashioned version of comfort means bugger all to people.

Cats at sea are a jiggling pain up the bum. But their cruising livability is so far superior to old boats that people put up with a lump and a bump for the huge well apointed living areas.

Even when I did a circumnavigaton in 2.5 years we spent most of that 2.5 years on the hook. Not sailing.
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Old 22-07-2013, 10:49   #48
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Doesnt it also depend on how much of the money went into a stronger hull/deck/rig? Are you saying a bene is built like an oyster? Frankly I think the Bene furniture is great, but I would guess (and it's only a guess) that the bene hull is far thinner, and the floor pan is slapped in there with some modern glue and considered "stuck".
Not really , as there is no evidence that say a Beneteau hull joint is a problem , in the main the hull liner and plexus do the job. Is stick built better , hard to say , since we have few failures to examine.

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Old 22-07-2013, 10:54   #49
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

So, Dave, exactly what is implied by your term "stick built"? I see it oft used, but don't really know what it means.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 22-07-2013, 11:02   #50
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Doesnt it also depend on how much of the money went into a stronger hull/deck/rig? Are you saying a bene is built like an oyster? Frankly I think the Bene furniture is great, but I would guess (and it's only a guess) that the bene hull is far thinner, and the floor pan is slapped in there with some modern glue and considered "stuck".

That might be a quality difference, but how would it affect motion comfort if they're the same shape?
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Old 22-07-2013, 12:18   #51
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

or... perhaps it could be a comparison of the hull forms of two equivalent length boats... pick an Oyster 49 and a Sense 50.. It is not difficult to see which of these would be more comfortable in bad weather, pound less, and have an easier ride.

The ride comfort has nothing at all to do with price or interior fitment....I have sailed the Atlantic in a Farr 56, and simply put, my experience is "never again".. Island hopping, sure, ocean crossing, nope.

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To suggest an oyster is more seaworthy then s beneteau is to fundamentally mix up interior quality with seaworthiness


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Old 22-07-2013, 12:34   #52
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
To suggest an oyster is more seaworthy then s beneteau is to fundamentally mix up interior quality with seaworthiness

The primary reason brands like hR and oyster are expensive is the manual labour and expensive wooden finishes that go into these yachts.

Fundamentally the underwater shapes are virtually identical and motion comfort and sea keeping are not dissimilar.

Comfort is a personal preference. I know many sailors that prefer speed and dynamic response rather then some mud -plugging long keeled disaster. The French for example tend to think that way as do the New Zealanders and their boat design reflect that

Look at the Pogo 12,5 for example these ate offshore boats.

Americans are stranded in the past when it come to sailing

Dave

Dave, we told you dozen of times in previous topics, Hr have the hull to deck joint glassed inside, no pan liners, and hundreds of small details in construction , is not just labour fees and wood for god shake!!

Seaworthy not sure, but better quality yeah! look a new bene 41 oceanis weight 19000 pounds , a Hr 41 24000 pounds, both have the same lenght, both have the same beam almost, identical sailplans, now why the Rassy weight that extra 5000 hu? just figurate....

Pogo 12,5 , haaaa your very funy,, not a crusing boat, good for speed, nothing else... Not sure if you try to say that a bene have the same level of quality and detail in construction and design as a Hr,s or Oysters, or a Swan , Cheap boats are for a reason, and is not that lame excuse like Lewmar suply billions of winches to that mass production brand and get better prices , come on, quality have a price, and thats it, German frers design a good amount of Hr,s and thats another excuse to pay a bit more for a boat designed by one of the most sucesful designers..

I have a full folder of pictures of the last benetau 50 refit here in the boat yard last year, not a bad boat, but full of short cuts , famous for oil sucked caning at the chainplates atachment point , you can see with the boat in the hard , and is notorious in others b50 , or the pan liner section in both aft cabins ,travelift slings go there , compressing the hull and cracking the liner inside, checked in others b50 to, figurate why get the tab as bendytoys,,,, can you sail offshore with this boats , sure why not, in fact are good boats for the money, but dont expect that quality level as other expensive brands....
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Old 22-07-2013, 12:55   #53
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Anyway sailing comfort is only part of it. I remember racing offshore and every old boat meant I slept in a wet pilot berth. No sex possible ......
And solo in your Bene is any better?
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Old 22-07-2013, 14:28   #54
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

If you are buying a new 40' boat to circumnavigate, or even to log some significant blue water miles, you are part of a significant minority among production boat buyers. You are not the demographic driving the market, and haven't been for decades. Pay attention to who is out of business, and who isn't, then ask why. Don't forget, we are talking about many brands revered on this forum that no longer exist as going concerns. They failed. And they failed because they didn't offer what the market wanted, even if you did. It's not hard to figure out.

Modern production boat builders are, in essence, trying to be all thing to all people particularly in the current economic environment. In some ways, it could be said this will be a good thing, as it pushes boat building to it's limits, and it keeps boats affordable. We'll see what works and what doesn't, and the market, i.e. you and me, will sort it out.

Much of this discussion is pretty theoretical. Like comparing an animal that is extinct to one that isn't. Sure there is the guy who is proud of his restored '57 Bel Air, but he goes to grandma's with the family in a Toyota Minivan. Exaggerated for effect, but you get my meaning.
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Old 22-07-2013, 14:32   #55
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Dave, we told you dozen of times in previous topics, Hr have the hull to deck joint glassed inside, no pan liners, and hundreds of small details in construction , is not just labour fees and wood for god shake!!

ands....
I've been to the factory three times , I've sailed several , please don't treat me like an idiot. I know exactly what in them and how they are made. I stand by my remarks

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Old 22-07-2013, 14:40   #56
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Never under-estimate the power of denial
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Old 22-07-2013, 14:46   #57
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Pogo 12,5 , haaaa your very funy,, not a crusing boat, good for speed, nothing else... Not sure if you try to say that a bene have the same level of quality and detail in construction and design as a Hr,s or Oysters, or a Swan , Cheap boats are for a reason, and is not that lame excuse like Lewmar suply billions of winches to that mass production brand and get better prices , come on, quality have a price, and thats it, German frers design a good amount of Hr,s and thats another excuse to pay a bit more for a boat designed by one of the most sucesful designers..
Your ignorance is beginning to show now, they make excellent sea boats.

Quality has a price , but only if you know what to look for. In many boats two things result in high prices ( a) hand built low volumes and (b) market pricing ( or expectation pricing ) it doesn't cost BMW much more to produce a car then Toyota , but you wouldn't buy a BMW priced like a corolla.

N manufacturers like Hanse and beneteau enploy millions of euros of automation , prefabrication and car like assembly systems. The can produce a good boat at a reasonable price, are you aware of Swedish labour costs. Its doubtful these yards will survive , all are changing their designs to comply with market trends , lighter faster boats , fin and spade, canoe body , lightly immersed forefoots, plumb bows, wide beam carried aft etc etc

You may laugh , but large companies like beneteau and Hanse demand exceptionally good prices from companies like selden. Yanmar , Volvo , Lewmar, Harkin , etc , what do yiu get in HR , selden yanmar , Lewmar etc

What you get in a HR is lovely hand finished high quality interiors , you get a degree of customisation(, in fact for quality Malo beat HR hands down) , but I have seen where the costs are ?


If you want a quality boat , get it built yourself and specify exactly where the money goes.
Dave
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Old 22-07-2013, 15:32   #58
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

If you were to ask me about "how a Beneteau sails" the first day I took her offshore, you would have gotton the worst feedback avalable..
Then I learned how to sail her..
And with many years of experance, I had to learn all over again... I found that she hates dead down wind sailing, and if forced into a following sea with a kite up, you'll feel like your standing on banana peals riding a scateboard..
But, on the other hand, a few degrees off the wind, and sailing the face of the swells, she comes alive and shows her true throbread breeding.
My point is,
All boats dont sail the same, and more times than not, each boat will have a sweet spot, where within that spot, she sails comfortable, at a fair speed..
Odd thing, I dont ever remember seeing an owners manual on a sailboat to show this, and I dont believe any production boat, or any boat for that mater has ever been built where the designers sat around figuring out how to make the boat sail crappy.
I'm a firm believer in the fact that if you boast about how crappy a boat sails, you dont know how to sail that boat............
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Old 22-07-2013, 15:41   #59
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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(...)

While I can see immediate benefits to these design features in flat water how do these hull shapes handle at sea?

(...)
But most of long range mom&pop passages (I mean here easy routes like the coconut milk run or a rtw via Panama & Torres) are downwind passages in nearly flat seas.

So, to me, it sounds like these modern designs are well optimized.

Other, more demanding, passages, may ask for other styles of boats.

b.
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Old 22-07-2013, 16:24   #60
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Gentlemen, this has been a very interesting forum and has definitely opened up an can of worms. I think that in days past when we didn't have radios,weather fax, computers GPS and all the other things that go "PING" sailers just looked at the sky and relied on local knowledge before deciding when to go. They took a big risk. Therefore a safe boat design was paramount. "Now a days" we have all the gadgets and we put our faith in all of them and care less for safe design. We know that the weather man is never wrong so having fun is more important, safety is for boring old farts. BUT. When I am 1000 nm from land in any direction, it is dark and cold and I am doing 6 knots under dare poles in a big sea. I don't want to be wrestling with the helm for hours on end because my boats dagger keel won't hold it in a straight line as it surfs down waves. I set my wind vane,close all the hatches and put on some music as I settle down to the graceful feel of my boat coming off the back of the waves. When I do reach land I can manoeuvre in a crosswind because my boat has far less windage to blow my across the marina. I take your point that modern designed boats have 2 heads fitted. I think it's because they know when it turns bad out there you'll need them.
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