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Old 27-07-2013, 15:33   #376
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Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

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Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post

(...)

The canoe stern and narrow beam do help keep the lines symmetrical under heel, and helps keep the rudder submerged. There's a reason that wide-stern boats often have dual rudders.

For me, the main advantage of the canoe stern is that I like how it looks on my boat. On some other boats it would look silly, but I really like the lines on my boat. That's one of the reasons I bought it.
I think what you say about symmetry (and implied benefits) is a huge point. Listening to how many cruisers mope about 'the helm' I laugh: no matter how hard pressed, our double-ender can be steered with two fingers on her tiller. Part of this may have to do with the lines being so symmetrical.

And I too find canoe stern visually attractive.

We solved the issue of downwind roll with converting to a gennaker. At 140-145 apparent, we often find that on one tack she is almost as stable as a broad-hipped boat. Yes, we have to sail the extra distance but this is somewhat made up for by sailing a bit faster.

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Old 27-07-2013, 16:24   #377
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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
There is a reason for canoe sterns... look at the area's and sea's where they're popular... big sea's and winds and that's what experience says works best.. why dya think shore launched lifeboats through the ages have had canoe sterns... will ride a wave truer than that fat ass waving around...
not popular with designers because it cuts down space aft that can fit twin cabins so a lot harder to sell..
Boatman have a look at new Shannon class beach launched lifeboat , see any canoe sterns ?

Dave
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Old 27-07-2013, 16:28   #378
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I like my canoe stern for looks and function too. Not as much space lost as you would think. Bob Perry is a genius. Especially considering he was very young when he drew the Valiant 40 hull lines.

Rudder feedback is more a function of balanced design and sail trim I think and not a function of the stern style. Our skeg mounted rudder provides little feedback even when it is pushing the stern hard around. The fin keel gives the rudder a lot more leverage too which helps. I'm pretty sure I'll never lust after a full keel boat. I can see no advantage over the fin keel with skeg mounted rudder.
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Old 28-07-2013, 03:18   #379
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Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

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I like my canoe stern for looks and function too. Not as much space lost as you would think. Bob Perry is a genius. Especially considering he was very young when he drew the Valiant 40 hull lines.
And Perry himself says that canoe sterns on modern designs are pure styling. The genius of Perry is in designing boats that were fast and sailed well in spite of having a canoe stern...
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Old 28-07-2013, 03:24   #380
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Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

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There is a reason for canoe sterns... look at the area's and sea's where they're popular... big sea's and winds and that's what experience says works best.. why dya think shore launched lifeboats through the ages have had canoe sterns...
The RNLI doesn't have a single double ender...
Looking at the seas where double enders are supposedly popular I still see that they are a tiny minority there.
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Old 28-07-2013, 04:08   #381
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Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

It depends a lot on what sort of seas / weather you expect to sail in, where do you want to go ?
Most double enders with long keels are slow and if you want to escape weather, forget it.
Traditionalists like being blown to bits in heavy long keel boats. Modernists like the speed of giant dinghies (a la Volvo 70).
Most of us I'm sure want something in between.
You can't write off skeg rudders on the experience of one designer...if you have a lot of weather helm, you have too much sail up etc etc. Spades a re exposed and easily damaged.
There is no doubt that "production" boats built for charter markets with max accommodation are not ocean crossers....sure there's lots of people out there sailing Beneteaus, Jeanneaus, Bavarias across oceans...but there's lots of stories of rudder failures, bulkheads moving, etc etc.
If you want a REAL ocean going production boat , IMHO you can't go past AMEL...built for ocean crossing, not charters in the Bahamas.

Steve Dashew used to say :
If ABS says 100 minimum, we like 200+
If everyone laughs that your anchor is so big, you've probably got it about right

I agree with that philosophy...the biggest and strongest you can accomodate will be the best when you need it.

I wouldn't go offshore in a Hanse or Bavaria or.....no way.
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Old 28-07-2013, 04:35   #382
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Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

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Originally Posted by Albro359 View Post
It depends a lot on what sort of seas / weather you expect to sail in, where do you want to go ?
Most double enders with long keels are slow and if you want to escape weather, forget it.
Traditionalists like being blown to bits in heavy long keel boats. Modernists like the speed of giant dinghies (a la Volvo 70).
Most of us I'm sure want something in between.
You can't write off skeg rudders on the experience of one designer...if you have a lot of weather helm, you have too much sail up etc etc. Spades a re exposed and easily damaged.
There is no doubt that "production" boats built for charter markets with max accommodation are not ocean crossers....sure there's lots of people out there sailing Beneteaus, Jeanneaus, Bavarias across oceans...but there's lots of stories of rudder failures, bulkheads moving, etc etc.
If you want a REAL ocean going production boat , IMHO you can't go past AMEL...built for ocean crossing, not charters in the Bahamas.

Steve Dashew used to say :
If ABS says 100 minimum, we like 200+
If everyone laughs that your anchor is so big, you've probably got it about right

I agree with that philosophy...the biggest and strongest you can accomodate will be the best when you need it.

I wouldn't go offshore in a Hanse or Bavaria or.....no way.
Speaking of Traditionalists being blown to bits in heavy long keel boats old S/V Satori appears to be tracking and sailing pretty darn good no matter what the commentator says.

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Old 28-07-2013, 05:29   #383
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pirate Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
The RNLI doesn't have a single double ender...
Looking at the seas where double enders are supposedly popular I still see that they are a tiny minority there.
Mate... with todays engines a frickin pontoon can get out there with a decent driver... back when under 10kts was the norm the canoe stern was chosen over a blunt end... these guys went out in serious weather often launched of beaches... they did not think 25knots was a big deal like many on here seem to... in the UK that's like decentish sailing weather...
Unfortunately I'm old enough to remember when we had these.. and they served many people extremely well over the years..
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Old 28-07-2013, 05:54   #384
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Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

I've sailed my canoe stern in gale force winds anyway and following seas and it was a baby doll.

My Alberg designed boat was always scarier with the seas running with me.

I'm just a farmer, I don't know why. Speaking of that, I gotta go cut some bulls out of the herd.
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Old 28-07-2013, 06:05   #385
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Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albro359 View Post
Steve Dashew used to say :
If ABS says 100 minimum, we like 200+
If everyone laughs that your anchor is so big, you've probably got it about right

I agree with that philosophy...the biggest and strongest you can accomodate will be the best when you need it.

I wouldn't go offshore in a Hanse or Bavaria or.....no way.
Steve Dashew however doesn't see any problem with putting windows in the topsides. The fact that he can explain why that is not a problem is one reason why I tend to believe what he has to say, more than some others that seem to keep repeating "modern is bad, old is good"...
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Old 28-07-2013, 06:07   #386
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Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
back when under 10kts was the norm the canoe stern was chosen over a blunt end...
The canoe stern was not chosen because of the lower speeds. IT was chosen because of the building material and knowledge of the time. We now have better materials, and better knowledge.
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Old 28-07-2013, 06:26   #387
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pirate Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
The canoe stern was not chosen because of the lower speeds. IT was chosen because of the building material and knowledge of the time. We now have better materials, and better knowledge.
Obviously your an expert on how easy it was to steam bend those planks for the sterns... and the perfect shaped ribs grew on every tree..
Must be why they chose not go for the more difficult to build blunt stern cutters of the day...
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Old 28-07-2013, 06:32   #388
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Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Obviously your an expert on how easy it was to steam bend those planks for the sterns... and the perfect shaped ribs grew on every tree..
Must be why they chose not go for the more difficult to build blunt stern cutters of the day...
That must have been a pretty good feeling to build a boat like that in a small shop back in the day.
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Old 28-07-2013, 06:38   #389
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pirate Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Steve Dashew however doesn't see any problem with putting windows in the topsides. The fact that he can explain why that is not a problem is one reason why I tend to believe what he has to say, more than some others that seem to keep repeating "modern is bad, old is good"...
I don't say 'Modern is bad'.... more like every design is/was built for a specific purpose...
The heavy double enders came about from fishing origins in the Northern Sea's and even earlier with the Norsemen's fast lightweight warships... designed for hard men in a hard world.
Todays world is different... plenty of plastic, powerful engines and lots of toys to ease the effort... so now we build boats for unfit, overweight retired desk jockeys in the main and luxury is the by word as opposed to strength...
But then I've no real axe to grind... fat ass... pointy ass... mono.. cat... tri... unlike you I don't give a gnats turd....
Its a boat..... PLAYTIME....
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Old 28-07-2013, 09:24   #390
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Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

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I personally think the canoe stern performs well enough, and has some advantages when it comes to keeping the boat balanced when it's heeling, but the supposed "following seas benefit" is overrated. I've had no problems with being pooped, and we have plenty of reserve buoyancy back there, but the canoe stern does reduce waterline length and significantly reduces the usable space in the stern area. The canoe stern and narrow beam do help keep the lines symmetrical under heel, and helps keep the rudder submerged. There's a reason that wide-stern boats often have dual rudders.

For me, the main advantage of the canoe stern is that I like how it looks on my boat. On some other boats it would look silly, but I really like the lines on my boat. That's one of the reasons I bought it.
I like honesty.

The tradeoff seems to be between aesthetics and space. Most people on a boat find space at a premium. Those nice lines are a luxury.
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