Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 25-07-2013, 14:32   #256
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: north carolina
Boat: command yachtsdouglas32
Posts: 3,113
Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I think there are few dumb posts here then. I think there is a number of posts that say one does not need an out-and-out blue water cruiser to sail weekend and coastal trips. And also that plain crossings in predominantly easy wx can be done with any mass produced boat as long as she is sound and driven by a competent sailor.

b.
I agree with you, as a competent driver could take a corvette across a creek and over the valley and up the muddy path. But would anyone want to take a corvette across the creek and over the valley and up the muddy path more than a few times? I think that is the question when it comes to a boat that was built for crossing oceans and one that was built to cruise the coastline...
__________________

__________________
tropicalescape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2013, 14:35   #257
Registered User
 
S/V Illusion's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lakewood Ranch, FLORIDA
Boat: Alden 50, Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 1,693
Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by tropicalescape View Post
I dont know ,but I agree with his observations on what is good for the around the world type of boat verses the one that should "keep them old apron strings within screaming distance", screaming as in seeing the sheet metal screws coming undone at the hull/deck joint when shes being pounded and twisted and watching that mast support crack getting wider and wider with every crashing wave over the deck and the saloon being flooded because there is no bridge deck to prevent it..The cook cant even make a cup of coffie because there is no place to hold onto and then they are suddenly ejected toward the bow of the boat and all the wide space allows tremendious accelration to build as one is flying toward the "head" then getting there only to be smashed over "the head" with a wide screen tv set! There are differances,dont you think?.......
So you view of a good boat is one which is idiot-proof. I would agree with that.

However, none of this answers my question. I'll take it that some people think anyone who writes a few books but hasn't done it is an expert who's opinion is valid, aka, an Internet expert.
__________________

__________________
S/V Illusion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2013, 14:41   #258
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: north carolina
Boat: command yachtsdouglas32
Posts: 3,113
Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V Illusion View Post
So you view of a good boat is one which is idiot-proof. I would agree with that.

However, none of this answers my question. I'll take it that some people think anyone who writes a few books but hasn't done it is an expert who's opinion is valid, aka, an Internet expert.
He gives the "Illusion" of being an expert... Now thats funny I dont care who you are..
__________________
tropicalescape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2013, 14:54   #259
Registered User
 
Sabbatical II's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lake Macquarie
Boat: Bluewater 420 CC
Posts: 756
Images: 1
Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

I haven't read every post here so I apologise in advance if I'm out of line. As someone who has launched a new "real bluewater" boat 9 months ago, I have some insight. It is true, I have a very seaworthy and solid design and it sails OK too. However, like every cruiser I know, we watch the weather very closely and we take few chances with it, so we have never sailed in the weather that my boat is supposedly superior in. Like all things there is a trade off and the modern production boats beat me into port in light weather. Most of our time spent cruising has been either at anchor or in a marina and the modern design boats make great dock queens. However, I have found that one thing crucial to our cruising contentment that is rarely mentioned, and that is generous storage capacity built into the design. Our 42' semi custom has a 660 ah house battery system and 320 amp solar I am self sufficient electrically with a simple 12v system. With 1100 litres of water and a built in rainwater catchment system I seldom need to fill tanks with a hose. With a 350 litre holding tank I can stay in an isolated anchorage for a long time before I have to go outside to pump out. With 600 litres of fuel I am not constantly looking to fill up. With all this low down or in the bilge filling them increases the vessels stability. Maybe if a production builder would offer such a boat in the 40 - 45' range they would own the serious cruiser market. Production building means more bang for your buck. Unfortunately it also means that builders will only build what will sell and storage capacities go unnoticed at boat shows. What would I do next time? Save the bucks, buy a production boat and live with the compromises as you have to do, whatever the design.
__________________
Greg
Sabbatical II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2013, 15:08   #260
Registered User
 
JK n Smitty's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hingham, MA
Boat: Catalina 310
Posts: 637
Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
To deny there's a difference between high end ocean going boats and production coastal cruisers as so many have done on this thread is just plain dumb.

I don't even know where to begin... so I won't.
Wow, someone is a little snobby.

Using an Oyster as an example of the "high end ocean going boat" for the purpose of this discussion, what is it about them that makes them so much "better" (i.e. more seaworthy in this discussion) than say a Catalina.

Looking at a couple of numbers:
D/L ratio O53 225 C445 193 both light cruisers
SA/D O53 19 C445 19
Ballast % O53 30% C445 33%
L/B ration O53 3.5 C445 3.3

Construction wise, they both use lead, bolt on keels, the both hulls are hand laid with vinylester resin on the outer layer to prevent blistering, both hull to deck joints are glued and through bolted, hardware penetrations are through solid glass (not cored) and both boats carry the beam far aft to a wide stern. So from a point of modern boat design versus traditional boat design, both boats are "modern" and very similar.

The Catalina has a spade rudder and a deck stepped mast while the Oyster has a skeg hung rudder with a keel stepped mast. There are pros and cons to all of these choices and I don't think you can definitively say one is better than the other. These come down to personal choice.

Absolutely the Oyster has higher end equipment and a much better fit and finish. But the Catalina is not too shabby. It has brand name equipment from reputable manufactures.

So what is it about comparing these two boats in the context of this thread that is "just plain dumb"?
__________________
http://svsmitty.wordpress.com/
JK n Smitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2013, 15:10   #261
Registered User
 
JK n Smitty's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hingham, MA
Boat: Catalina 310
Posts: 637
Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
It was one of Lin and Larry Pardy's rules too. However in just about every book they broke the rule and were badly dusted up each occasion!
I need to read more Pardy's. Thanks for reminding me.
__________________
http://svsmitty.wordpress.com/
JK n Smitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2013, 15:17   #262
Registered User
 
S/V Illusion's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lakewood Ranch, FLORIDA
Boat: Alden 50, Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 1,693
Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by tropicalescape View Post
He gives the "Illusion" of being an expert... Now thats funny I dont care who you are..
Childish but I guess when you can't answer the q, that all you've got to hide behind. Peekaboo, we see you.
__________________
S/V Illusion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2013, 15:18   #263
Registered User
 
JK n Smitty's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hingham, MA
Boat: Catalina 310
Posts: 637
Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by tropicalescape View Post
This guy knows what is "better" to take to the open ocean and what is relagated to close in shore work...If someone thinks this guy is wrong, try a stock 1983 Hunter 34 or an Irwin thru the roaring fortys and let us know how it well it works out...Jeeps are made to be run offroad as well as the street,it isnt as fast as a corvette,but lets see how well the corvette handles the creek crossing and the hill jumps and the rocky trails,some boats should stay within site of the shoreline ,but if your boat was designed to operate "off road" who cares where the shorline is..
I think this is a very poor analogy (I own a Jeep by the way, so I get your point). The example of a Corvette would be better if we were talking about some of the one design rocket ships. No interior, just some sea births, carbon sticks, planning hull, etc.

For Benny, Catalina, Hunters, etc. I think a Ford Explorer or Chevy Tahoe would be a better analogy to the Jeep. No, they are not the off road beasts a Jeep or Defender 90 would be, but they could get across the creek in the right area, over the hill and up the rocky trail.
__________________
http://svsmitty.wordpress.com/
JK n Smitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2013, 15:33   #264
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:

o deny there's a difference between high end ocean going boats and production coastal cruisers as so many have done on this thread is just plain dumb.
No one is arguing that say a custom designed high end ( read high cost ) is the same as a Beneteau or a Catalina

What IS being argued

(A) cost in itself is not an indication of seaworthiness

(b) the various numbers for say modern HR /oyster are not that different from modern lower cost models. Construction is quite similar, equipment is same brand ,canoe body and Appendages are similar

(B) don caseys piece is quite frankly nonsense

Firstly modern vessels cope with weather quite. Well.

Secondly he omits any positive features if modern designs , like better pointing , better windward speed , better hydrodynamic surfaces etc. the whole piece is biased , omits dynamic stability issues and regurgitates nonsense.

How about the moody 45 Ds which has no AVS , does that make it more seaworthy then 180.

Then there is his comments on ballast ratio ( which is just wrong as weight has no contribution in itself towards seaworthiness , his comments on windows is 1969s ( laminated glass is stronger then the grp ) and oysters are full of big windows !!

AVS of 180 show me a long keeler with that

Ovnis are well regarded as 4x4 of the sea , yet have very poor AvS ,

God what biased rubbish.

The key issue is that more and more production boats sail oceans.
Secondly have any of you sailed Northern European waters. You think the ATlantic is tough , please that's a doodle compared to the North Sea.

Coastal sailing is tougher then milk run ocean crossings.

The modern production cruiser , well sailed , is more then capable of bluewater travel typical of the 40 N to 40S brigade

Most people that buy range rovers never see off roads activity , the same is true for " high end cruisers " it's a status symbol.

Take a jeep grand Cherokee ora Corvette, across a mountain, both will crap out , the jeep because its a pretend offroader but at least the corvette isn't pretending neither have the basic mechanical reliability or real capability of say a military hummer.

Modern production boats meet and exceed most requirements placed on them , that's why they sell in large numbers

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2013, 15:42   #265
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: north carolina
Boat: command yachtsdouglas32
Posts: 3,113
Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V Illusion View Post
Childish but I guess when you can't answer the q, that all you've got to hide behind. Peekaboo, we see you.
Come on now ,I was thinking how to answer the question when I thought that he does give the impression(illusion) of a person with knowledge! I wasnt picking on you or trying to be childish..I dont know anything about this guy other than his books, and you made a valid point about folks that write books ..The guy that made more money than anyone in the Motorized Paragliding business was a 19 yr old kid that didnt even know how to fly!!He wrote a silly little book(Going up in a powered parachute) and some plans and made a small fortune(to this day),so I get your meaning, But I dont think Don Casey is a little kid with an angle,I think he is legit from what I can tell , his work is good and those mags he writes for think so too,If hes a real sailor i dont know for sure ,but once again he gives the illusion that he is ...
__________________
tropicalescape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2013, 15:46   #266
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,310
Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Actually.... as a former Bene' 321 and 331 owner I find it all extremely amusing...
Solo'd both across the pond and around the Atlantic Islands/Carib etc... no problems.

Phil you now part of the Idiots and Liars group!

BTW if you are doing the roaring 40s be sure a storm is forecast to be sure to get the full effect of the 1 in 1 million sailor. (for those that believe in such a useless measurement to the real world). (not to you Phil but to the people not worthy of joining the Idiots and Liars group)
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2013, 15:54   #267
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don L View Post
Phil you now part of the Idiots and Liars group!

BTW if you are doing the roaring 40s be sure a storm is forecast to be sure to get the full effect of the 1 in 1 million sailor. (for those that believe in such a useless measurement to the real world). (not to you Phil but to the people not worthy of joining the Idiots and Liars group)

Wow Don, relax man, you will have a heart attack if you dont calm down a bit, Question Don? who is a idiot in this forum ?
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2013, 16:01   #268
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: north carolina
Boat: command yachtsdouglas32
Posts: 3,113
Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
No one is arguing that say a custom designed high end ( read high cost ) is the same as a Beneteau or a Catalina

What IS being argued

(A) cost in itself is not an indication of seaworthiness

(b) the various numbers for say modern HR /oyster are not that different from modern lower cost models. Construction is quite similar, equipment is same brand ,canoe body and Appendages are similar

(B) don caseys piece is quite frankly nonsense

Firstly modern vessels cope with weather quite. Well.

Secondly he omits any positive features if modern designs , like better pointing , better windward speed , better hydrodynamic surfaces etc. the whole piece is biased , omits dynamic stability issues and regurgitates nonsense.

How about the moody 45 Ds which has no AVS , does that make it more seaworthy then 180.

Then there is his comments on ballast ratio ( which is just wrong as weight has no contribution in itself towards seaworthiness , his comments on windows is 1969s ( laminated glass is stronger then the grp ) and oysters are full of big windows !!

AVS of 180 show me a long keeler with that

Ovnis are well regarded as 4x4 of the sea , yet have very poor AvS ,

God what biased rubbish.

The key issue is that more and more production boats sail oceans.
Secondly have any of you sailed Northern European waters. You think the ATlantic is tough , please that's a doodle compared to the North Sea.

Coastal sailing is tougher then milk run ocean crossings.

The modern production cruiser , well sailed , is more then capable of bluewater travel typical of the 40 N to 40S brigade

Most people that buy range rovers never see off roads activity , the same is true for " high end cruisers " it's a status symbol.

Take a jeep grand Cherokee ora Corvette, across a mountain, both will crap out , the jeep because its a pretend offroader but at least the corvette isn't pretending neither have the basic mechanical reliability or real capability of say a military hummer.

Modern production boats meet and exceed most requirements placed on them , that's why they sell in large numbers

Dave
They sell in large numbers but ,most people dont sail around the world or down the coast of continents and across oceans, but if they do I think the things he mentioned make excellent sense, I have never ever read a book about ocean cruising that suggest that you could do it with a mass produced coastal cruser right off the shelf,not one person that writes books for a living is advocating doing such a thing..They will say things like "if" you do decide to use such a boat you should first change this ,modifie that, add this, change that and so on,where as some boats come of the line and do advocate that you could take the boat out to sea right off the shelf, companys like PSC,Oyster etc
__________________
tropicalescape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2013, 16:10   #269
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
I think this is a very poor analogy (I own a Jeep by the way, so I get your point). The example of a Corvette would be better if we were talking about some of the one design rocket ships. No interior, just some sea births, carbon sticks, planning hull, etc.

For Benny, Catalina, Hunters, etc. I think a Ford Explorer or Chevy Tahoe would be a better analogy to the Jeep. No, they are not the off road beasts a Jeep or Defender 90 would be, but they could get across the creek in the right area, over the hill and up the rocky trail.
To carry on with the car theme..........

........a couple of years ago one of my Neighbours drove to Beijing. Admittedly as part of a group but the theme of which was 500 bangers. No idea what car he went in, but was some sort of faceless 20 year old production saloon. Of course it got a damned good service beforehand!, but no off road or specialised mods.

25 years ago he would have needed a 4x4 to do that journey.
50 years ago a 4x4 and support vehicles, and possibly also lots of folks with guns!
Before that Camels. Lots of them!

My point being that life (and the world) moves on, time was when a boat going RTW needed to be able to carry 1/2 of West Marine onboard just in case, now no actual need - if you stick to the beaten track (which now exists!), or at least in reach of DHL .
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2013, 16:16   #270
Registered User
 
S/V Illusion's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lakewood Ranch, FLORIDA
Boat: Alden 50, Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 1,693
Re: Modern Production Cruisers at Sea

Anyone else see the incredible irony in a bunch of people expounding on an obscure Internet site about the concept of offshore sailing and even citing another 'expert' about whom no one can attest to his qualifications?

I suspect that, like a few others here, I have sailed across the Pacific and learned only one thing relevent to this subject -that I don't even know everything I don't yet know.

These type discussions about what is the 'best' boat seem to occur only on this forum and serve only to mislead anyone who is actually seeking objective info. If any value arises from this brilliant example of wasted time, it is entertainment and a study in the frailties of human nature to criticize in order to sound knowledgeable.
__________________

__________________
S/V Illusion is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale or Trade: 565+ Nautical E-Books Crimea Cruiser Classifieds Archive 10 23-06-2013 21:33



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:43.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.