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Old 23-07-2013, 11:24   #166
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Well Don, if new boats learned the errors of the old boats maybe you can explain to us why Hunter choose in some models the horrible and weirdo combination of a fractional rig B&R with a in-mast furling mainsail hu??
Cheers...
I don't have in mast furling, but wish I did.

This rig is GREAT! You do have to learn to sail it and it is different than a conventional rig. It goes along with past comments on the thread that you need to learn to sail YOUR boat the way it is designed to be sailed.

Compared to my last boat the fractional rig with that big powerful mainsail is so much easier to balance and hardly ever has much weather helm (if you have 5 degrees of rudder on you are doing something wrong). The rig goes along with the keel design and location for the CE of the boat. The boat is just so much easier (and faster) than my Cal-39 was!

And yes, you can sail the boat wing-on-wing if you want to (did is coming though the channel last Sunday). But unless you have to because of a narrow channel it is not to way to sail the rig to make best VMG!

With that said I'm sure lots of people will not believe because they know I'm and idiot and liar.


PS - Hunter has using this rig for well over 10 years now. That is probably 1000s of boats. If it really was an issue it would effect sales and I'm sure they would change.

And whoever said it was to save the cost of a backstay, are you out of your mind, be real!
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Old 23-07-2013, 11:31   #167
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Don, im the guy who make some repairs in WANDERLUST Mike Harker boat, and i got the chance to sail the boat after a rig tune here in St marteen , wing and wing i dont think so, unles you slam that big main against spreader tips and shrouds, but maybe you have another theory in the wing and wing scenario ? no..
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Old 23-07-2013, 11:35   #168
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

It was very hard to give up the Nonsuch, especially because it was the last 36' built and the guy who had it built funded the company while it was going under... with unlimited funds at his disposal he outfitted the thing to the nines... electric winches, B&G everything, state of the art electronics including a "chartplotter" (this was 1994 and modern chartplotters didn't exist -- this one had a mouse kind of thing that you swept across paper charts), copper clad bottom, and on and on... it was an awesome awesome boat.

It will be equally hard to give up our Hunter 44DS. It was the last 44DS built and has many of the features of the replacement model, the 45DS. It has been an incredible boat to cruise on -- fast, nimble, comfortable -- and with 555 watts of solar and a 60 gallon per hour watermaker, we lived in total comfort on the hook 100% of the time.

You can buy a Hunter without in-mast furling, and some folks do. In our experience, it hasn't been a problem. As I said, Selden custom designs the B&R rigs for Hunter. If it couldn't be done well, I trust they would pass on being the OEM and would let some other lower quality spar manufacturer give it a try..

I love our electric winch -- easy to send hubby up the mast as well as raise/lower the main, dinghy, kayak, jib -- and I love our B&R rig. If I were to buy another cruising boat, I would get a Hunter for sure... the 50cc sure is a beauty!!!

And as I said, we have a twizzle rig - twin jibs on twin poles - works great downwind and sailing under jib alone is also wonderful and we choose that option most of the time.
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Old 23-07-2013, 11:42   #169
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Don, im the guy who make some repairs in WANDERLUST Mike Harker boat, and i got the chance to sail the boat after a rig tune here in St marteen , wing and wing i dont think so, unles you slam that big main against spreader tips and shrouds, but maybe you have another theory in the wing and wing scenario ? no..
Like I said you have to learn to sail the boat the way it is designed to be sailed, sometimes that means the main is on the spreaders! That is why the sail has cheap to replace wear patches on the sail at those locations (mine are 12 years old and still haven't needed to be replaced)!

But like I already said that is not the best way to make VMG on the boat.

Sometimes it is better to center the main to allow the head sail to be out in the wind, and then sometimes it is better to just furl up the head sail and sail on the main (since it is so much bigger to start with). But if there is room it is just better to move off some.

But if your point is that I'm wrong and that you know how to sail my boat better than I do so be it! I love it when people tell me that the things I do normally on my boat without any issue can not be done.
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Old 23-07-2013, 11:50   #170
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Ok, but i bet you that with a full bat car well installed and posible a electric winch in the cockpit im able to rise or drop the mainsail in a matter of seconds, and without the risk of a broken battem or end velcro loose jaming the whole thing in the worst moment, as Don point out, new boats learn from the mistakes of the past , i believe this is just another way to complicate things, and with a risk,,, B&R rigs are prebend by nature, inmast furling dont like mast rake , and vertical battems in a big roachy mainsail can be a pain in the ass , with practique can be ok and the whole thing work nice, but we know in boats sooner or later s$!!t happen, sorry for the word...
Again, a series of compromises. Do you risk a jam but have the ability to reef or douse sails quicker? Do you eliminate the risk of the jam but have additional windage for those times you want to be bare pole? Do you like the infinite reefing possibilities or only having 2 or 3 reef points?

Me personally, I would like a boom furling system with full battens and cars. But alas, cost has forced me to compromise and I have full battens, no cars and no furling boom, just 2 reef points. But I do have single line reefing and with practice, this works pretty quick and while underway.

I also suspect that many of us have these thoughts of disaster due to a jammed furling line blown out of perspective. I know I was very fearful of these units. But then I started to research it more and found that most of the issues were caused by human error. On my own furling headsail I had a jam a couple of weeks ago. I went upfront and corrected the problem. When I examined it, I found that I must not have kept any tension on the furling line when the sail was caught by the wind. As a results, the line had all bunched at the top and jammed. Human error. I had a group of friends out and didn't pay enough attention. It was my second error of the day. Earlier I was yelling at the wife that she wasn't pulling the main halyard hard enough but the problem was we still had a reef in. oops!

As you said, stuff happens. It could happen with any rig. And all rigs are a series of compromises.
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Old 23-07-2013, 12:31   #171
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

I think something related to modern design trickling down from the racing fleet to the cruising one is that respective materials and techniques seem to lag behind shapes and forms.

And so we have a growing number of boats that look like they have a racy pedigree BUT they were executed in less resilient materials, with less advanced technology and by less skilled workforce.

My prophecy is Class A bendy will have to be substituted with another Class A bendy sooner.

This is in line with how things are built and used today. Too bad for the environment.

b.
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Old 23-07-2013, 13:05   #172
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

The modern production sailboats are great value. Its a good thing there is such a large market for charter boats because that allows the builders to feed the production line and keep costs down.
Can they cross oceans, of course they can and do on a regular basis. Do you get good value, sure but keep in mind used sailboat values have only one way to go.
Should you spend more and buy a better built boat, well of course that's a very personal thing, There are some on this board that would suggest that a Beneteau and an Oyster are built to similar quality standards which is total bunk and if you have ever had a good look at both boats you'd see it and feel it very quickly. But that aside is the higher quality boat worth what you pay for it. Well this is where it becomes a personal decision. There are some people that can afford top line everything and they tend not to be the Beni/Hunter buyer as they set their sites much higher and can afford to do so. If you want a yard like Morris to build you a boat its not going to be the cheap seats. Does Morris build a better boat that a Jeaneau/Bavaria...of course they do, there is really no comparison but that doesn't mean you can't cross oceans in the cheap seats because its being done every day. It really doesn't matter what you purchase these days, some products are built down to a price and they offer good value to the masses, others are built up to a high quality standard and they are not meant to appeal to the masses. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that your high value low cost sailboat is equal to a high quality, spare no expense boat because it isn't. Thank god for the cheap seats or most of us wouldn't be sailing today.
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Old 23-07-2013, 13:12   #173
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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(Peterson 34)

Maybe it will help then if I sail it a little higher (than dead down wind) with an aysmmetrical spinnaker.
A hull of that shape will be very twitchy anywhere from 150 - 180 apparent. Both you and your autopilot will be worn out in any breeze above 15 knots.

If you want a racer from that period take a look at the designs of Bruce Farr from around 1978 - 1985. A good starter would be the Farr 33. Those boats have much straighter lines running aft making them easier to steer. Usually, they do not come with much of a fit out below. If you want a cruising interior then there is the reasonably similar Farr 1020.

Should your skills extent to carpentry this boat might be a bargain.
1985 Farr 38 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

The 38 was the first boat designed by Bruce Farr with no regard for rating limitations. There was a version produced in Australia called the 11.6. They can surf downwind quite happily all day in following seas.
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Old 23-07-2013, 13:32   #174
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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A hull of that shape will be very twitchy anywhere from 150 - 180 apparent. Both you and your autopilot will be worn out in any breeze above 15 knots.

If you want a racer from that period take a look at the designs of Bruce Farr from around 1978 - 1985. A good starter would be the Farr 33. Those boats have much straighter lines running aft making them easier to steer. Usually, they do not come with much of a fit out below. If you want a cruising interior then there is the reasonably similar Farr 1020.

Should your skills extent to carpentry this boat might be a bargain.
1985 Farr 38 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

The 38 was the first boat designed by Bruce Farr with no regard for rating limitations. They can surf downwind quite happily all day in following seas.
For an older design racer a Cal 40 isn't a bad choice. Super strong, sail great, cross oceans no problem.
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Old 23-07-2013, 13:52   #175
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Again, a series of compromises. Do you risk a jam but have the ability to reef or douse sails quicker? Do you eliminate the risk of the jam but have additional windage for those times you want to be bare pole? Do you like the infinite reefing possibilities or only having 2 or 3 reef points?

Me personally, I would like a boom furling system with full battens and cars. But alas, cost has forced me to compromise and I have full battens, no cars and no furling boom, just 2 reef points. But I do have single line reefing and with practice, this works pretty quick and while underway.

I also suspect that many of us have these thoughts of disaster due to a jammed furling line blown out of perspective. I know I was very fearful of these units. But then I started to research it more and found that most of the issues were caused by human error. On my own furling headsail I had a jam a couple of weeks ago. I went upfront and corrected the problem. When I examined it, I found that I must not have kept any tension on the furling line when the sail was caught by the wind. As a results, the line had all bunched at the top and jammed. Human error. I had a group of friends out and didn't pay enough attention. It was my second error of the day. Earlier I was yelling at the wife that she wasn't pulling the main halyard hard enough but the problem was we still had a reef in. oops!

As you said, stuff happens. It could happen with any rig. And all rigs are a series of compromises.
We have had an in-mast furling system for 20 years, and your comments mirror our experience. My older system likes a practiced hand familiar with it's quirks, but what sailboat, particularly an older one, doesn't. It functions predictably and reliably, with no catastrophic failures on record. It can get hung up if you don't respect the correct technique to furl and unfurl, or you are negligent in maintenance, but any issues are temporary and quickly resolved by backing up and doing it right. Newer systems have evolved to overcome some of the quirks in mine.

As a result, main furling for us is a must have. We have no fear of furling failure because we have never experienced or known anyone who has. Sure I'm giving up some speed, and we'll get looked down on by purists, but I pull it out and back in on a whim when the air is flukey so I sail more, and with almost no time spent putting sails away, I'm generally the first to be anchored or docked. And from a safety standpoint, there is something to be said about doing it all from the cockpit. So, when Beneteau builds boats, they are targeting me. I don't like all aspects of production boats , but they offer enough, particularly in critical areas that are important to us, that we will always give them serious consideration when time to buy again.
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Old 23-07-2013, 14:05   #176
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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There are some on this board that would suggest that a Beneteau and an Oyster are built to similar quality standards which is total bunk and if you have ever had a good look at both boats you'd see it and feel it very quickly.

I don't believe anybody made that suggestion.

What they suggested was that the boats are similar in terms of modern shape.
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Old 23-07-2013, 14:56   #177
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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The modern production sailboats are great value. Its a good thing there is such a large market for charter boats because that allows the builders to feed the production line and keep costs down.
Can they cross oceans, of course they can and do on a regular basis. Do you get good value, sure but keep in mind used sailboat values have only one way to go.
Should you spend more and buy a better built boat, well of course that's a very personal thing, There are some on this board that would suggest that a Beneteau and an Oyster are built to similar quality standards which is total bunk and if you have ever had a good look at both boats you'd see it and feel it very quickly. But that aside is the higher quality boat worth what you pay for it. Well this is where it becomes a personal decision. There are some people that can afford top line everything and they tend not to be the Beni/Hunter buyer as they set their sites much higher and can afford to do so. If you want a yard like Morris to build you a boat its not going to be the cheap seats. Does Morris build a better boat that a Jeaneau/Bavaria...of course they do, there is really no comparison but that doesn't mean you can't cross oceans in the cheap seats because its being done every day. It really doesn't matter what you purchase these days, some products are built down to a price and they offer good value to the masses, others are built up to a high quality standard and they are not meant to appeal to the masses. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that your high value low cost sailboat is equal to a high quality, spare no expense boat because it isn't. Thank god for the cheap seats or most of us wouldn't be sailing today.


I agree with you in some points, cheap production boats make people happy because that people can get the oportunity to sail, wich is a good thing, about what you point out if is worth the extra money you pay for a better quality boat, well many examples , can you expect the same quality and longevity in a Lee mainsail made it in honk kong for 2000 compared with a 5000 North sail? Do you value the quality of the plumbing in a production cheap boat v a expensive one?

In gear and equipment alone there is a small diference , some people dont notice that, others put the small details in the list as a primary consideration, i mean , i dont care if my new boat is fited with lewmar or harken , what i want to know if there is proper backing plates under, same aply to tankage, what i want to know if that piece of 30 gallons plastic thing is well secured to the boat, few examples, or maybe someone can explain to us why this boats lean in the cheap side, Factory robots cutting holes in the deck to acomodate portholes and hatches?
if someone take a tour at bavaria yacht factory or jeaneau can notice there still lots of man labour, hulls still are sprayed in their moulds by humans, but is fine as far this boats hit their goal, nothing wrong, but if someone say that a Hr or a Oyster or a Amel is in the same league, i call this BS!
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Old 23-07-2013, 15:04   #178
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
The modern production sailboats are great value. Its a good thing there is such a large market for charter boats because that allows the builders to feed the production line and keep costs down.
Can they cross oceans, of course they can and do on a regular basis. Do you get good value, sure but keep in mind used sailboat values have only one way to go.
Should you spend more and buy a better built boat, well of course that's a very personal thing, There are some on this board that would suggest that a Beneteau and an Oyster are built to similar quality standards which is total bunk and if you have ever had a good look at both boats you'd see it and feel it very quickly. But that aside is the higher quality boat worth what you pay for it. Well this is where it becomes a personal decision. There are some people that can afford top line everything and they tend not to be the Beni/Hunter buyer as they set their sites much higher and can afford to do so. If you want a yard like Morris to build you a boat its not going to be the cheap seats. Does Morris build a better boat that a Jeaneau/Bavaria...of course they do, there is really no comparison but that doesn't mean you can't cross oceans in the cheap seats because its being done every day. It really doesn't matter what you purchase these days, some products are built down to a price and they offer good value to the masses, others are built up to a high quality standard and they are not meant to appeal to the masses. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that your high value low cost sailboat is equal to a high quality, spare no expense boat because it isn't. Thank god for the cheap seats or most of us wouldn't be sailing today.
Yes, but many of the items that go into the increased cost and workman ship don't have anything to do with improving the performance of the boat offshore in deteriorating weather. For instance, what does the fit and finish of the cabinetry have to do with seaworthiness? There could be an issue with how the cabinets are held to the boat, but that could easily be corrected in the cheaper production boat by an owner during outfitting. Is an ultra leather settee safer than a fabric one? Are beautiful teak decks and bright work safer than fiberglass with aggressive non-skid and stainless steal?

Other things could have an affect on the seaworthiness. The hull to deck joint. HRs make a beautiful glassed under joint. Hunters have an exterior flange. While many don't like the way that Hunter does it (and I am one but that might just be my own personal prejudice coming out) are there any actual examples of this being less strong? Jeaneau/Benny use cast iron keels instead of lead. This could be more prone to damage from hitting a hard object than a lead keel. But are there many examples of this actually being an issue? They also use saildrives to save money and space. Some don't like this but there are thousands of catamarans that no one would question using saildrives. Same with the Hunter B&R rig.

My point is that there are some thumbing their noses at production boats because they don't fit their idea of what a blue water boat should be. But when the same advancements in materials and marine design go into Morris/Oysters/high end builders those concerns seam to go away. That just doesn't make sense. The areas were the cost are being cut by the production boats have less to do with seaworthiness than aesthetics in most cases. And were they have to do with seaworthiness there is little evidence of the concerns turning into real problems.
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Old 23-07-2013, 15:05   #179
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
I agree with you in some points, cheap production boats make people happy because that people can get the oportunity to sail, wich is a good thing, about what you point out if is worth the extra money you pay for a better quality boat, well many examples , can you expect the same quality and longevity in a Lee mainsail made it in honk kong for 2000 compared with a 5000 North sail? Do you value the quality of the plumbing in a production cheap boat v a expensive one?

In gear and equipment alone there is a small diference , some people dont notice that, others put the small details in the list as a primary consideration, i mean , i dont care if my new boat is fited with lewmar or harken , what i want to know if there is proper backing plates under, same aply to tankage, what i want to know if that piece of 30 gallons plastic thing is well secured to the boat, few examples, or maybe someone can explain to us why this boats lean in the cheap side, Factory robots cutting holes in the deck to acomodate portholes and hatches?
if someone take a tour at bavaria yacht factory or jeaneau can notice there still lots of man labour, hulls still are sprayed in their moulds by humans, but is fine as far this boats hit their goal, nothing wrong, but if someone say that a Hr or a Oyster or a Amel is in the same league, i call this BS!
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Old 23-07-2013, 15:09   #180
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

I don't know who the hell some of the members here think they are to continue to refer to other people's boat as cheap.

What a bunch of a-holes we have here that they feel the need to continue this crap! It is especially bull where they give an "example" that is false and just proves how small minded they must be to continue this in some misplaced effort to make themselves feel all superior about whatever POC boat they may have.

Do you ever notice that the owners of these "super" boats that are always used as example against "other" boats don't feel the need to tell us how great their boat is compared to others. But for some reason owners of old boats, that are worth less that the production boats they are trashing, for some reason need the boost to their egos?
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