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Old 23-07-2013, 08:38   #136
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Looks like Paul L has been doing his reading...............

I like the 117 PHRF, the 6.25' keel (won't be good in the Chesaoeake though) the baby stays etc. The boat does have a bal/disp ratio of 47% so it should pop back up from a hard knockdown, but I don't know how much hardware will still be left standing.

I want to learn these boats. I'm hearing the boat has a solid fiberglass hull but that composites were used in the construction. I'm also hearing they are tough boats.

I plan on battling heavy weather with good communication. In other words, I'll run from it or not go out.
What kind of knockdown are you worried about? A roundup with a spinnaker -- if so, it just ain't that bad. If you are talking about being rolled by a breaking beam on wave, then its a different. Either way, Peterson 34 is not a modern design.
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Old 23-07-2013, 08:44   #137
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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What kind of knockdown are you worried about? A roundup with a spinnaker -- if so, it just ain't that bad. If you are talking about being rolled by a breaking beam on wave, then its a different. Either way, Peterson 34 is not a modern design.
I was talking about a weather related knockdown but since you brought it up, I'll probably be knocked down from the spinnaker before I would a weather related incident especially since I'll be sailing solo most of the time. I'll plan on getting and flying an asymetrical.

I know it isn't a modern design, but it's fast and will point well if I decide to race it. I don't want to buy a really expensive modern boat before I learn more. These boats may be all I will need. That Peterson is all race boat below it appears. Not pretty.
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Old 23-07-2013, 08:46   #138
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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They're all uncomfortable in a blow... just some are more so.. and in different places...


I've always had the feeling that this is true (except for boats on the exceed ends of design). The window between a cruising boat being "comfortable" while some other is "uncomfortable" is a small window of weather that blows past you while you are running around putting the reefs in, so you didn't notice.

It is like virtue among whores, doesn't normally really matter much.
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Old 23-07-2013, 08:51   #139
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I may not have as much experience as some of you, but I crew on both an 80's Passport 42, and an RP 1D 48. Yes, the passport is slower, and much more comfortable in cold rainy weather. However, although each feels different in heavy seas, I do not perceive much advantage or disadvantage to either based solely on handling and ride quality. Yes due to its sumptuous teak cabin, the passport offers more comfort than the stripped down carbon cave of the race boat. Yes the sled is much faster. The race boat rolls less, bounces more. The cruiser rolls more and surprisingly to me is less comfortable in following and quartering seas. Upwind the Passport pitches more, but slams less. I think this whole thing about fin keels and spade rudders not handling downwind/in following seas is wrong. Both styles are challenging but in different ways. The modern boat is more sensitive but more responsive, the older style requires more anticipation and "feel" to keep from wiping out. The race boat sails DDW very well, and of course surfs better.

They are different. I would feel equally safe crossing an ocean on either one. Twice as fast, or twice the comfort, equally safe.

The problem I see often on this forum is the people mix build quality and modern design into one inseparable category. I think the two need to be separated. For example the Lyman Morse Paris 63 Kiwi Spirit is thoroughly modern and will circumnavigate just fine I suspect. I for one would feel quite nervous putting to sea in any boat where the cabin sole flexes under my weight, as many new production boats do. The whole brass sea cock thing is a bit disturbing too. Many boat owners do not plan to cross oceans, is it wrong to build boats for them? Cheap boats for cheap people, to each his own. Some drive Porsche some drive VW.

To say all new boats are poorly made, uncomfortable in a seaway, and unsafe compared to older designs is incorrect. Can examples be found? Absolutely. But there were plenty of crap old boats too, they just didn't survive. So comparing crap modern boats to well built older boats is apples and oranges.

Cheap boats will be cheaply built and rarely become classics, just like cars. Anyone still drive a Yugo?

For the record, I much prefer the aesthetic of the older boats. I think my favorite new boat is the Morris M46. It's the best of both worlds.
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Old 23-07-2013, 09:03   #140
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Gentlemen, this has been a very interesting forum and has definitely opened up an can of worms. I think that in days past when we didn't have radios,weather fax, computers GPS and all the other things that go "PING" sailers just looked at the sky and relied on local knowledge before deciding when to go. They took a big risk. Therefore a safe boat design was paramount. "Now a days" we have all the gadgets and we put our faith in all of them and care less for safe design. We know that the weather man is never wrong so having fun is more important, safety is for boring old farts. BUT. When I am 1000 nm from land in any direction, it is dark and cold and I am doing 6 knots under dare poles in a big sea. I don't want to be wrestling with the helm for hours on end because my boats dagger keel won't hold it in a straight line as it surfs down waves. I set my wind vane,close all the hatches and put on some music as I settle down to the graceful feel of my boat coming off the back of the waves. When I do reach land I can manoeuvre in a crosswind because my boat has far less windage to blow my across the marina. I take your point that modern designed boats have 2 heads fitted. I think it's because they know when it turns bad out there you'll need them.
This is one of the points Inwhich I brought up earlier about NOT knowing how to sail a modern boat.. you dont just put the rags up and point her down wind..
with modern boats, you have the option to do more and experance less of the tramatic seas once seen by those of past.. in past when storms arose, you had one choice as to lock it up and go below and hope to hell your boat made it throu the storm.. and you needed a boat built like a brick to do so,
But with new designs and info avalable you have the advantage to avoid the nasties... you ask any world cruiser, in a modern design boat and they will tell you that in all their travels, they incountered winds rarely over 30 knots.. and I say modern design, note that.
We've had the oppertunity only once to incounter heavy winds and with a modern design , ie- fin keel , wide beam, racer cruiser, we were able to get ourselves out of the "danger zone" ..
not saying we out-ran the storm, but put ourselves in the quarter of the storm with the least amount of the nasties.. It was in the north west off the coast of Canada and by altering our corse from south east, to south west, we put ourselves in calmer waters..
understanding weather paterns and having a performance design hull, kept us out of the bad weather...
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Old 23-07-2013, 09:08   #141
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Throw the rags up and point'r downwind! That's awesome!

He's got a point though. Ever notice that a lot of these guys that bring an old full keel boat back to life buy the sails last or never.............
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Old 23-07-2013, 09:13   #142
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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I think this whole thing about fin keels and spade rudders not handling downwind/in following seas is wrong. Both styles are challenging but in different ways. The modern boat is more sensitive but more responsive, the older style requires more anticipation and "feel" to keep from wiping out. The race boat sails DDW very well, and of course surfs better.
when I brought up the point that our Beneteau handles bad in following seas, you have to understand that our 42 is a rare breed of the mid 80s when the IOR was king.. IOR boat were the race design of that era..
Dead down wind in following seas is a No-No for us.. I hear tyhe new wide bodies are a dream to sail in following seas.......
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Old 23-07-2013, 09:14   #143
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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I've always had the feeling that this is true (except for boats on the exceed ends of design). The window between a cruising boat being "comfortable" while some other is "uncomfortable" is a small window of weather that blows past you while you are running around putting the reefs in, so you didn't notice.

It is like virtue among whores, doesn't normally really matter much.

I strongly object!
Most of the whores that I know are quite virtuous, to their credit, and I must say that I prefer and respect that.
So yes, it does matter.
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Old 23-07-2013, 09:20   #144
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

We love our 2008 Hunter 44DS. Easy to handle, fun to sail, does well in all kinds of crazy conditions. We are ending our cruising journey, but it has been a dream boat in every respect while cruising Mexico for 3.5 years.

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Old 23-07-2013, 09:32   #145
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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You make a point as far as it goes, however your post infers there are no "crappy" sailing boats, and that, as we all know, is... well...crap.

just catching up here,

And I still stand by what I said.. "short story" as when I was about 10 or 12, myself and a couple other guys built a raft from old railrode tyes and a couple pallets.. found a 10 foot pole and roped it into place for a mast and hung an old bed sheet for a sail.. we'd sail that raft across the pond and then drag it around the shore to do it again.. (it only sailed down wind) but it was a dream come true for us at the time.. and oddly, for a railrode tye raft, it sailed quite fast as I remember..
Now I'm not one for heavy weight boats and dont think I'll ever own a W32 or a formosa but off the wind, they sail ok for what they are and what they were designed for..
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Old 23-07-2013, 09:42   #146
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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just catching up here,

And I still stand by what I said.. "short story" as when I was about 10 or 12, myself and a couple other guys built a raft from old railrode tyes and a couple pallets.. found a 10 foot pole and roped it into place for a mast and hung an old bed sheet for a sail.. we'd sail that raft across the pond and then drag it around the shore to do it again.. (it only sailed down wind) but it was a dream come true for us at the time.. and oddly, for a railrode tye raft, it sailed quite fast as I remember..
Now I'm not one for heavy weight boats and dont think I'll ever own a W32 or a formosa but off the wind, they sail ok for what they are and what they were designed for..
That's right. And like the old saying goes, "Gentlemen don't sail to weather."
Personally I really like the feel of those big heavy cruising boats.
Those pirate shippy Asian cruising ketches are an absolute joy to be on as long as you can reach off a bit and aren't committed to pounding your way to windward.
I might even own a Westsail32 if marinas didn't make you pay for all 41 feet of it.
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Old 23-07-2013, 09:45   #147
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

Tis funny really,

I think I can state with certainly that we pretty much would all agree that all boats are a compromise...

So, if all boats are a compromise, why is it that there is a large number of people posting in this thread that seem to be stating categorically that modern mass produced boat designs effectively have no compromises?..

You don't get something for nothing....not now, and never did. If anyone wishes to believe otherwise that's cool for them, but as one of the folks here who knows his vessel is a compromise between speed & comfort, just don't expect me to believe you
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Old 23-07-2013, 09:51   #148
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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So, if all boats are a compromise, why is it that there is a large number of people posting in this thread that seem to be stating categorically that modern mass produced boat designs effectively have no compromises?..

Those posts must have gotten deleted, or I missed all of them. But they would have been correct as the new boats learned the errors of the old boats and now have it right
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Old 23-07-2013, 09:55   #149
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

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Tis funny really,

I think I can state with certainly that we pretty much would all agree that all boats are a compromise...

So, if all boats are a compromise, why is it that there is a large number of people posting in this thread that seem to be stating categorically that modern mass produced boat designs effectively have no compromises?..

You don't get something for nothing....not now, and never did. If anyone wishes to believe otherwise that's cool for them, but as one of the folks here who knows his vessel is a compromise between speed & comfort, just don't expect me to believe you
I don't think you are getting that at all. No one had ever said boat X is the perfect boat in all situations. Most of the discussion is centered around comfort and seaworthiness in deteriorated conditions. As you said, no one would dispute that all boats are a compromise. This has been a discussion on how you evaluate those compromises.
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Old 23-07-2013, 09:57   #150
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Re: Modern production cruisers at sea

I don't think that anyone hear said modern boat designs effectively have no compromise.
I completely agree with you. Every boat is a compromise.
I guess when you put it that way the real discussion is about what each individual decides to and is willing to compromise.
Good , better, best, not unlike beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
Consequently, for some, the only thing that is effectively without compromise is their own opinion.
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