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Old 31-08-2016, 12:14   #76
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Sail shape, gentle people. Sail shape.

You can vmg and wtf no matter what and waste your eyesight comparing the polars, the gauges and the chicks ashore.

A clean hull, a good trim, and quality, new sails.

She will go fast and flat. Or at least faster and flatter than when dirty, over-trimmed and with baggy sails.

Cheers,
b.
Yep,
camber and angle of attack. As wind picks up and/or boat speed picks up both can be improved for windward performance. The OP had too little camber, wrong angle of attack... and I still bet the jib was sheeted in too tight and when the main went out it got backwinded. ...and I have my doubts an in-mast furled main can hold 40 degrees.....
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Old 31-08-2016, 12:21   #77
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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...and I have my doubts an in-mast furled main can hold 40 degrees.....
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I will not have in-mast furling on my next boat, but in-mast furling mains can work amazingly well with good sails and a good rig. They have a great number of advantages.

I have never lost a battle with a racing boat of under 50'. Some of the defeated skippers were quite cross that they couldn't keep up with a fat cruising boat with in-mast furling.
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Old 31-08-2016, 12:34   #78
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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I will not have in-mast furling on my next boat, but in-mast furling mains can work amazingly well with good sails and a good rig. They have a great number of advantages.

I have never lost a battle with a racing boat of under 50'. Some of the defeated skippers were quite cross that they couldn't keep up with a fat cruising boat with in-mast furling.
Ah... but YOU have a Moody 54... that's a horse of a different color!
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Old 31-08-2016, 14:11   #79
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Attachment 130366





I will not have in-mast furling on my next boat, but in-mast furling mains can work amazingly well with good sails and a good rig. They have a great number of advantages.

I have never lost a battle with a racing boat of under 50'. Some of the defeated skippers were quite cross that they couldn't keep up with a fat cruising boat with in-mast furling.
DH, I'm wondering how you explain this experience? You have a fin keel with a bulb, they have a fin keel with bulb. You have carbon sails, they have carbon sails (or equivalent). You have fancy trim controls, they have fancy trim controls. You have ~46 ft LWL, a 49 ft racer will have about the same. You have gen sets and dinghies and lots of cruising gear on board, they have bugger all except moveable ballast in the form of crew.

So, how do you explain your being faster?

Jim
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Old 31-08-2016, 14:37   #80
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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We liked to go with the trades, which blow usually a steady 20-30 knots. At that speed any boat will do hull speed with just the normal compliment of sails up. In light air, mains are useless anyways. Those two conditions fairly cover the range of sailing conditions one finds around the world when traversing the old sailing routes.
On this, I & most who like to sail, differ. As with a large, well trimmed, battened main, plus a good sized, well trimmed jib, one can sail upwind at wind speeds down to 4-5kts (in a monohull). And when you're out cruising, or just sailing in general, there's plenty of air that light.

Do you truly love the sound & smell of your engine so much as to eschew good sailing techniques & tools? And why ditch battens? AKA a tool used by sailors round the world for millenium. As, given that, they must have some value. Non? Or so have thought a few billion seamen over the years.
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Old 31-08-2016, 14:42   #81
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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DH, I'm wondering how you explain this experience? You have a fin keel with a bulb, they have a fin keel with bulb. You have carbon sails, they have carbon sails (or equivalent). You have fancy trim controls, they have fancy trim controls. You have ~46 ft LWL, a 49 ft racer will have about the same. You have gen sets and dinghies and lots of cruising gear on board, they have bugger all except moveable ballast in the form of crew.

So, how do you explain your being faster?

Jim
Jim, I don't think that Dockhead's yet quite faced the reality that he's turned into a racer, as has his boat. Given the equipment that's onboard & in use, as well as say, his description of how to trim a main on pg.1 of this thread.
All of it screams racing, but he's a "cruiser". Despite having toys & sails that most racers would drool over.

Though I too am curious to hear the answer to this question!
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Old 31-08-2016, 14:57   #82
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Yes, if all your sailing is downwind in the trades, then none of my comments apply. To sail downwind, you only need to make drag, not lift, so a much simpler job for the sails.
Que in sound of a LOUD Buzzer. Errr! Wrong.
Downwind, lift is easily as important as drag, often more so. And it matters all the more, the faster that you go. Be it lift from the main, a jib, staysail, spinnaker, or even a square.
You still need to pay mucho attention to sail shape off of the wind. The math don't lie. And it's pretty obvious too.

For example, what happens to AWA, & AWS when you're sailing at 150 apparent & your speed goes up due to a boost in breeze?
To take advantage of it, you trim in your sails to a more weatherly (lift oriented) shape. And when taken to the extreme. On a truly fast boat, you're almost always on a reach due to this. With correspondingly different sail shapes & types. But it still applies even if you're on a Westsail 32'.
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Old 31-08-2016, 15:27   #83
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
DH, I'm wondering how you explain this experience? You have a fin keel with a bulb, they have a fin keel with bulb. You have carbon sails, they have carbon sails (or equivalent). You have fancy trim controls, they have fancy trim controls. You have ~46 ft LWL, a 49 ft racer will have about the same. You have gen sets and dinghies and lots of cruising gear on board, they have bugger all except moveable ballast in the form of crew.

So, how do you explain your being faster?

Jim
Very simple --

waterline length!


It's actually the king.



But drilling a little deeper -- besides waterline length, my boat is light (fully cored with balsa and Kevlar outer skin) and well shaped. The D/L ratio is similar to <50' racing boats.

Also she has a small rig -- 16.5 SA/D -- which means little drag. A disadvantage only in light winds behind the beam.
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Old 31-08-2016, 15:32   #84
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Que in sound of a LOUD Buzzer. Errr! Wrong.
Downwind, lift is easily as important as drag, often more so. And it matters all the more, the faster that you go. Be it lift from the main, a jib, staysail, spinnaker, or even a square.
You still need to pay mucho attention to sail shape off of the wind. The math don't lie. And it's pretty obvious too.

For example, what happens to AWA, & AWS when you're sailing at 150 apparent & your speed goes up due to a boost in breeze?
To take advantage of it, you trim in your sails to a more weatherly (lift oriented) shape. And when taken to the extreme. On a truly fast boat, you're almost always on a reach due to this. With correspondingly different sail shapes & types. But it still applies even if you're on a Westsail 32'.
Sounds convincing. Maybe I'm just not there yet, in my long study of sail trim. I've been completely concentrated on sailing upwind, the last few years.
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Old 31-08-2016, 15:38   #85
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Jim, I don't think that Dockhead's yet quite faced the reality that he's turned into a racer, as has his boat. Given the equipment that's onboard & in use, as well as say, his description of how to trim a main on pg.1 of this thread.
All of it screams racing, but he's a "cruiser". Despite having toys & sails that most racers would drool over.

Though I too am curious to hear the answer to this question!
Ha, ha. I take that as a very nice complement; thank you.

I actually started out my sailing life as a racer -- 420's on Galveston Bay when I was a teenager.
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Old 31-08-2016, 15:42   #86
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

Ease the traveller.

Sheet in and out depending on the wind. Or use the traveller

Steer the boat as if racing. Head up for the gusts and head off during lifts keeping the boat at the same heel all the time

Now combine all of these and you will keep the boat at a constant heel....as if racing

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Old 31-08-2016, 15:54   #87
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Sounds convincing. Maybe I'm just not there yet, in my long study of sail trim. I've been completely concentrated on sailing upwind, the last few years.
Your concentration is paying off. As that description of proper main trim on pg.1 would do any racer proud. Ditto on many of your explanations of what your instruments displays are telling you, & being able to define those things to others who don't know what they are. As well as learning which ones, of the myriad of available choices, are more critical to pay attention to.

It's stuff which is definitely worth the time to learn, as one really begins to enjoy sailing their boat, and being able to see the payoff for their labors. Via the instruments, the flying spray, & in making good time, point to point.

It still is cruising, but of a more involved, adrenaline amped sort. And that paying of more attention to ones vessel, as well as the environment usually gives you more advanced notice of when changes are to be forthcoming. Whether it's noticing something in need of a bit of TLC before it breaks, or being better able to know of aberant weather headed your way, regardless of what the weather geeks have promised.

Nice to see!


PS: When one can teach it, usually they've learned it well. Almost to mastery; which is a question of one's depth of knowledge on the subject. And teaching a thing aids in one's better learning it.
Or as my brother once said, long after becoming a multiple black belt. "Being an 'Expert' means having mastered the basics. And only then can one truly begin to learn".
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Old 31-08-2016, 16:01   #88
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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"Being an 'Expert' means having mastered the basics. And only then can one truly begin to learn".
Sure applies to sailing!
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Old 31-08-2016, 17:10   #89
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

There may be exceptions to the rule but the boats in this video pretty much prove that you have to maintain the angle of heel to maintain speed AND pointing.

You can maintain speed with less heeling but you will fall way off the wind as compared to another boat on the same tack of similar design otherwise one of these boats would be sailing with less heel

See the first upwind leg

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Old 31-08-2016, 22:26   #90
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
There may be exceptions to the rule but the boats in this video pretty much prove that you have to maintain the angle of heel to maintain speed AND pointing.

You can maintain speed with less heeling but you will fall way off the wind as compared to another boat on the same tack of similar design otherwise one of these boats would be sailing with less heel

See the first upwind leg
Thanks for the video! Sadly my ear is a bit rusty when it comes to translating. But most of sailing is universal

Yes, a little bit of heel is fairly essential for good speed & pointing. Generally on the order of 15 deg+/-. Sometimes a touch more, & often a few degrees less. And it's important enough so that when racing, if it's light, you move crew down to the leeward side of the boat in order to get the optimum angle. As well as for & aft in order to get the proper trim for wind strength & direction, waves, & steered course.

As when weight is properly placed, you don't need much, if any helm input. Well, until something changes, such as getting a puff of breeze for example. Or sliding down a wave, which alters both the wind, & a boat's center of buoyancy (CB), center of lateral resistance (CLR), center of effort (CE), & on, & on.

The optimum angle of heel is listed in a boat's Polars for any given windspeed, & AWA/TWA. As determined by the team who drew up the yacht, tested her, & put her into production. With a similar process for custom boats.
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