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Old 29-08-2016, 11:32   #31
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
No -- that is a user-defined 9-field screen. Heel angle is available from the Airmar H2183 gyro stabilized compass.

That screen is configured to give me the main things I like to know making passage upwind -- VMG to waypoint, heel angle, rudder angle, COG, SOG, DTW, etc. It's different from the SailScreen screen on the B&G plotters which is very nice, with much nicer graphics, but more racing oriented. Doesn't have COG, SOG, or curiously, VMG.
My RM i70 displays can be customised to display the same sort of info including the heel angle, if there is a sensor for it. Given that it is a very simple sensor that is included in many phones and devices, it should not be hard or costly to include it in a MFD or display circuit. Automatic calibration also shouldn't be a challenge either.

Do you have the Airmar as a replacement for the standard compass sensor for your AP (B&W?) or is it in addition?
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Old 29-08-2016, 11:41   #32
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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My RM i70 displays can be customised to display the same sort of info including the heel angle, if there is a sensor for it. Given that it is a very simple sensor that is included in many phones and devices, it should not be hard or costly to include it in a MFD or display circuit. Automatic calibration also shouldn't be a challenge either.

Do you have the Airmar as a replacement for the standard compass sensor for your AP (B&W?) or is it in addition?
No compass came with my Autopilot (branded B&G but actually just a Simrad AC42). I chose the H2183 as it seemed to be the best non-satellite compass on the market. My network is NMEA2000, so you can use any compass with any pilot. The Airmar is three-axis gyro stabilized and extremely accurate. Like many other electronic compasses, it gives heel and trim data, which is really useful. I display this data not only on the screen shown, but also in the data bar of the Zeus plotter at my nav table. Heel and rudder angle are crucial data for sailing upwind. Both of them indicate in their own way a problem with sail trim.
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Old 29-08-2016, 11:44   #33
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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What is the best way to reduce heel while still maintaining speed. What about moving the traveller leeward?

The winds must have changed a bit because about an hour after I let out the mainsheet, I tried it again and this time we nicely lost some heel but not speed.

What are some of the best methods to reduce heel without reducing much speed?
There are a few classic ways to reduce heel:
  1. Reduce sail area.
  2. Flatten the sails (backstay, foot tension, halyard tension)
  3. Ease the traveler to leeward
  4. Harden the vang, and ease the mainsheet.
  5. More weight on the weather side.
If you have a lot of weather helm, and have to hold the rudder more than about 5 degrees, then you easing the traveler is a great first step. But overall overpowering can also cause weather helm (in addition to too much sail area in the main), so you might consider a smaller jib or a rolled up genoa.

My guess is that many cruising boats end up with full sails, and no good way to flatten them. While powerful when moving through chop, full sails are more likely to overpower the boat as well as reducing your ability to point, and increasing leeway.

When boats used to rely on a variety of jib sizes, they were able to match the wind velocity to the sail area, while using flat, efficient sails. Modern furling sails rarely look as good when they are fully "out", and look worse when partially reefed/furled.

Cheers,

Chuck
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Old 29-08-2016, 11:57   #34
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Don C L, same is true for my 50 year old Columbia 29 mark 2. 😀
Yep! But you have 1000# more lead under you (which is probably better) so you'll be heeling a LITTLE less.
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Old 29-08-2016, 12:01   #35
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

OK. After reading the posts, it is pretty clear to me that my problem was not correctly trimming the mainsail.

I believe the jib was good because both in and out telltales were horizontal, but I believe I way overtrimmed the mainsail so that I was getting just heeling force without lift. So a properly trimmed mainsail and angle of attack would have produced the best speed to heeling angle ratio.

It felt like when I let out the main sheet I was losing too much power, but next time I will need to pay closer attention to speed. Unfortunately, the Jeanneau doesn't have mainsail telltales because it has an in-mast furling mainsail.

I had always heard that new sailors have a tendency to over-trim, now I understand better. I look forward to using some of the great suggestions next time.

Thanks to everyone for their great suggestions.
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Old 29-08-2016, 12:06   #36
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Originally Posted by Chuck Hawley View Post
. . . When boats used to rely on a variety of jib sizes, they were able to match the wind velocity to the sail area, while using flat, efficient sails. Modern furling sails rarely look as good when they are fully "out", and look worse when partially reefed/furled. . .
Indeed, and especially oversized, low-clewed genoas. Which are in principle not good for going upwind, and even worse when reefed, and on top of that, are not good for going off the wind either because of the clew location. Ick. I have no idea whey they are so popular.

A higher aspect jib has a wider wind range. My blade is good from 5 knots to 30 knots of true wind, as long as the wind is ahead of the beam, and doesn't even have a reef point. No good for light wind behind the beam, but neither is a large genoa.
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Old 29-08-2016, 12:14   #37
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

Then again, heel lengthens the waterline, sometimes considerably, and thus increases potential hull speed. Raced a Japanese version of a Yamaha 33 that added several feet to the waterline when heeled 25 degrees. Fat beams. After that point no way could you get it to heel anymore. Just spilled the wind.

You could probably invent an artificial beam to add greater heel resistance and help increase speed at the same time. Kind of like a huge silicone boob you could drape over the leeward side.
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Old 29-08-2016, 12:17   #38
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Well, probably not the guest experience you were thinking of but making them into rail meat is an option.
LOL. There can be only one correct answer! ::
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Old 29-08-2016, 12:22   #39
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Originally Posted by lindabarzini View Post
OK. After reading the posts, it is pretty clear to me that my problem was not correctly trimming the mainsail.

I believe the jib was good because both in and out telltales were horizontal, but I believe I way overtrimmed the mainsail so that I was getting just heeling force without lift. So a properly trimmed mainsail and angle of attack would have produced the best speed to heeling angle ratio.

It felt like when I let out the main sheet I was losing too much power, but next time I will need to pay closer attention to speed. Unfortunately, the Jeanneau doesn't have mainsail telltales because it has an in-mast furling mainsail.

I had always heard that new sailors have a tendency to over-trim, now I understand better. I look forward to using some of the great suggestions next time.

Thanks to everyone for their great suggestions.
Sounds like you're on the right track.

I would bet that what happened was you let the mainsheet out without putting the vang on. So you lost leech tension and the top twisted off, and you thought you needed to haul the mainsheet back in. Next time put some vang on.
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Old 29-08-2016, 12:26   #40
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

Ah, in mast furling. Battenless mains are notorious for not pointing well at all. But you are right to be sure that whatever you have is trimmed right. I'd still put telltales on that main.
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Old 29-08-2016, 12:31   #41
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Originally Posted by lindabarzini View Post
OK. After reading the posts, it is pretty clear to me that my problem was not correctly trimming the mainsail.

I believe the jib was good because both in and out telltales were horizontal, but I believe I way overtrimmed the mainsail so that I was getting just heeling force without lift. So a properly trimmed mainsail and angle of attack would have produced the best speed to heeling angle ratio.

It felt like when I let out the main sheet I was losing too much power, but next time I will need to pay closer attention to speed. Unfortunately, the Jeanneau doesn't have mainsail telltales because it has an in-mast furling mainsail.

I had always heard that new sailors have a tendency to over-trim, now I understand better. I look forward to using some of the great suggestions next time.

Thanks to everyone for their great suggestions.
yep, sounds like you had the main stalled. tell tails on the leach may help you. couple pieces of yarn'll do the trick. should work with mast furling as well. used a little differently than head sail tell tails. you want them flowing smoothly back to a point just before they begin to wrap around the back of the leach. in other words, they can be trailing neatly even if you are under trimmed so increase main sheet tension until the tell tells wrap behind and then ease just enough to get them flying again. and pay attention to that traveler. it's one of the most important sail control when going to weather. good luck.
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Old 29-08-2016, 12:33   #42
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Ah, in mast furling. Battenless mains are notorious for not pointing well at all. But you are right to be sure that whatever you have is trimmed right. I'd still put telltales on that main.
Can you put telltales on a furling main without them getting snagged?
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Old 29-08-2016, 12:33   #43
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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Ah, in mast furling. Battenless mains are notorious for not pointing well at all. But you are right to be sure that whatever you have is trimmed right. I'd still put telltales on that main.
There is no problem having telltales on an in-mast furling main.

Mine is in-mast furling and has telltales. Also carbon vertical battens
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Old 29-08-2016, 12:38   #44
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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There is no problem having telltales on an in-mast furling main.

Mine is in-mast furling and has telltales. Also carbon vertical battens
We had one of our new vertical battens disappear while night sailing a month ago. It was tucked in it's pocket and velcroed in. Who knows how that happened, the thing was five feet long.
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Old 29-08-2016, 12:40   #45
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Re: Methods to decrease heel

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We had one of our new vertical battens disappear while night sailing a month ago. It was tucked in it's pocket and velcroed in. Who knows how that happened, the thing was five feet long.
Ha, ha. I've lost two of them this summer

I'll have to keep a whole supply of them on hand, from now.
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