Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

[djaustralia]

I have a healthy fear of ocean sailing which is what probably keeps me on land. I've got nothing but respect for those brave enough to venture forth (I'd like to try some day if someone wants to make an offer). I have been on a few trips between Tas' and Melbourne on the ferries over the last 25 years and I have been privelidged to sail on the "oursvannen" square rigger whilst on sydney harbour.I was a naval cadet at the time. I have over the years been fishing on yachts and 17ft half cabins owned by relatives but this is not the thread for that chat is it? SO....WINDIGO...any joy there?

[ElGatoGordo]

Originally Posted by djaustralia

SO....WINDIGO...any joy there?

You need to read those pages you skipped. She is hard aground on a beach in OZ, there are pictures even!

[NoTies]

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

I have been taking a bit of a "CF Holiday" but feel I must respond to this thread.

Even for CF this thread is so full of self righteous BS that I am left floored.

I wonder if the rest of the world was populated with the same percentage of people in this thread who are so responsible and so reliable why is the world in so much trouble? I mean if all the members of this thread were so honerable to their debts, and I can think of some posters in this thread who might want to think twice about posting so vociferously on this point, why is it that there are so many social ills.

It is amazing that no one has pulled the "armchair critic" card yet? Am I the first poster reading this thread who has vomited in their mouth at the self righteous, arm chair total ******** that has infected this thread?

I love most the posters who have no history of blue water cruising commenting in depth about how people should behave when they are hurt and frightened.

Where are the defenders with common sense that have actually been in the **** and know how the mind doesn't work rationally to come to these people's defence?

Seriously, I can't name a single person in this thread who actually has the personal or professional experience to really comment on whether these people should or shouldn't be held responsible for their boat ending up on the beach.

What an amazing piece of vitriolic ******** you have spewed. You are absolutely correct, you should embarrassed, especially in your role as moderator. If you had a shred of decency you would recuse yourself from the moderator role at least, you are not fit for it. What qualification and right do you have to judge the experience of me or any other?

[10yearplan]

It seems to me that posting on this forum is a double edged sword. On one hand everyone is so willing to share with "newbies" and encourage them in their dreams and at other times posters are vehemently attacked. I was not blessed to have been born near water or raised in a sailing family but my husband and I share a dream and have been encouraged by so many and that is what brought me to this forum. We recognize that we have a lot to learn and won't be completing a circumnavigation anytime soon but we will be joining the ranks of the sailing world. It is my hope however, that I am never on the wrong side of this group.

[DumnMad]

Foolishsailor;"I love most the posters who have no history of blue water cruising commenting in depth about how people should behave when they are hurt and frightened.

Where are the defenders with common sense that have actually been in the **** and know how the mind doesn't work rationally to come to these people's defence?"

Don't be too quick to take offence, theres something to be learned from these comments.

[Coops]

Originally Posted by 10yearplan

It seems to me that posting on this forum is a double edged sword. On one hand everyone is so willing to share with "newbies" and encourage them in their dreams and at other times posters are vehemently attacked. It is my hope however, that I am never on the wrong side of this group.

Forums unfortunately are like any large group of people. there are those who genuinely want to help folks. There are those who think that their opinion is the only one and any other is rubbish. Some folks like to have a laugh and see some humour, others are perhaps bitter about something and wish to have an argument with, or belittle, others so that their candle appears brighter to themselves. It is extremely doubtful that you will be on the wrong side of a group, but always possible that some individual will feel better by having a shot at what you say. Just ignore it, there is a "be nice" rule on here, but for it to be effective, the offensive post has to be reported. We cannot expect the mods to read every post, they have to be assisted in their duty. So, do not get involved in a word battle with someone that cares not a jot about you or anything other than his/her own opinion. Stay calm, smile, and enjoy this forum, it has so much to offer in so many ways, ignore the bullies, they cannot battle with you if you do not feed their egos.

PS. Also agree that it was a bad example set by a moderator on this thread. Sometimes perhaps we press submit way too early and in the wrong mood.


Coops.

[djaustralia]

Just saw the vid on youtube. ohh BUGGER! nuf from me.

[foolishsailor]

Originally Posted by Coops

PS. Also agree that it was a bad example set by a moderator on this thread. Sometimes perhaps we press submit way too early and in the wrong mood.

Coops.

I do feel very strongly that it is wholy unfair for people to be judging these people so harshly and also feel that it is easy to judge from the end of a keyboard what must have been an amazingly difficult decision - especially if someone hasnt experienced the fear first hand that the sea can produce.

But you are all right, i should not have taken a poke at the group, it was unfair and really not my style. Late night posting or no.

Apologies.

[Coops]

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

I do feel very strongly that it is wholy unfair for people to be judging these people so harshly and also feel that it is easy to judge from the end of a keyboard what must have been an amazingly difficult decision - especially if someone hasnt experienced the fear first hand that the sea can produce.

But you are all right, i should not have taken a poke at the group, it was unfair and really not my style. Late night posting or no.

Apologies.

Bravo! Easy to stick to your guns, a lot harder and much more a revealing of your true character to admit some small mistake. Well done good sir, great example to others.

Coops.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Coops

PS. Also agree that it was a bad example set by a moderator on this thread.

Just because foolishsailor is a Mod does not mean everything he does or says is as a Mod - I think he is allowed to express own opinions (and to get slated for them - as anyone else can be.....within the "play nice" rule).

Personally I am kinda wondering whether I have been reading the same thread as many others ....I can't say that I have read anything that has offended me, including the stuff that is easily discounted or the attitudes I disagree with - but perhaps that also because I don't take everything on the internet to heart .

[S/V Alchemy]

DOJ, you and I are in accord.

From this thread, I've seen plenty of opinions on where and when responsibility for an abandoned boat ends....and a little bit on how boat abandonment may therefore require cutting hoses to avoid wrecking on a shore.

Note that Windigo's hull could have just as easily crossed a boat closer to shore at night, making eight knots. In other words, she was a nav hazard that only dumb luck did not turn into a nine-tonne crash barrier that would have stove in the hull of most boats below 80 feet or so.

No one here knows whether the owners discussed this beforehand or had the presence of mind (or perhaps the experience) to consider what might happen to their abandoned boat in their absence. Had they done so, they might have acted differently. Perhaps not. Too late now. Spilt milk, beached boat.

Maybe the old saying "don't leave until you step up into the raft" should be amended to "don't leave until you've opened the seacocks and need to step up into the raft".

It might focus the minds of sailors staring at that big red button to think "Well, we can't just leave. An adrift boat is a menace at sea and a small environmental disaster ashore". Nobody's reported on that aspect.

Clearly, there are exceptions. If we were close to an area populated with salvors or fisherfolk used to towing, and say we had burnt ourselves successfully putting out a fire and needed evacuation, I would leave the boat adrift, with some sort of beacon and some sort of instructions to "please save this boat". There's standard forms of compensation.

Others, like the owner of "Satori" that I cited, pull themselves off the hospital bed to help get their vessel off the beach.

Here we have reports of whining about their stuff. Maybe there's a whole other, unreported side of the story wherein they express their intentions to cut up their boat and cart it away. Maybe.

But I doubt it. Seamanship can be found at all levels of experience, I've found. Even a kid in a Opti who does the prudent thing instead of the show-offy thing exhibits it. Is this a situation in which seamanship was exhibited? And should the absence of seamanship be penalized?

I don't find these questions as nebulous as they may at first seem, Mr. Shocked and Appalled Shellback Mod. I do find hearing other peoples' opinions on them, from whatever part of the sailing spectrum they are on, to be of value and interest. It is possible that the charge of "too harsh/self righteous" is not just the opinion of an experienced sailor familiar with brown foulies, but merely a minority opinion.

Ten bucks says that Windigo had armchairs aboard.

[boatman61]

Anyone can say what they would have done.. I do.. but the 1st thought that pops to mind is 'Me Alone'... and if my mood has been prepped by some agressive posting I'm likely to maybe come in a bit heavy with opinion.. I know what I would have done/tried... Solo..
But reflection on the situation (hard with brain farts).. takes one back to situations that one buries along with the storms that told you you were dead... but survived.
I've had crew crack up on me on voyages.. one must remember.. 99% of folk are not used to weeks at sea..
At home life is a series of social/work structured order.. everything is in a familiar comfortable environment... so when the rolling goes on to long, you've bashed your butt, thighs, ankles and toes for forever.. sleep deprivation because you've no real pattern..
everything seems to be breaking and just dropping a plate can trigger hysterics... you abandon ship or slap em round the head.
Thats down to the state the skippers in.. and thats likely not much better than the crew.. unless he's a working sailor for real..
Its big and empty out there unless your buddy boating... between Panama and Torres I saw 3 ships and 5 sailboats out at sea.. and chandlers 1000's of miles apart... that I know for a fact starts freaking folk out.. the reality is far from the dream.. thats atoll hopping in perfect weather.
There's no doubt they could have done much more.. the doubt is whether they were capable mentally.
All to often folk set off on these trips with all the bells and whistles.. boats set up for 'Perfect Storm'.. but the owners are often not... for most 1000 miles a year coastal cruising is an exception.. so cramming 3yrs normal sailing with pitstops into say 4+weeks and no pitstops seems a doddle.. in your dreams.. because every little thing thats went wrong and you fixed at anchor now needs to be fixed in an up to 40* roll plus pitch.. the stress is 24/7 and ones imagination starts working overtime.. I've had crew threaten to hit me if I did not turn for port due to the conditions at the time... I stayed on course and we were clear in another 3 hours.
Like 'Who wants to be a Millionaire'... the answers are a doddle... until your in the chair...
Sorry... waffled on a bit then..

[shorebird]

While I'm a little reluctant to post on this thread again, after reading some of the comments, I re-read my previous posts discussing insurance, I feel the need to clarify a comment regarding "poorly qualified sailors." Although this thread is in reference to the Windigo, I had no intention whatsoever of referring to her owners as such, and have not the faintest idea of their qualifications, nor the circumstances that lead to their rescue. The comments were in reference to sailing in general, as the thread had drifted somewhat by then and apologies to Windigo's owners if I made it appear otherwise. As a Search and Rescue Manager, I never ever passed judgement on someone's decision to call for help. Sometimes you have to withdraw, and live to fight another day.

[sdowney717]

One thing I get from reading the thread. Scuttle the boat when you leave it in a situation like this. When it floats in and you have no insurance and you abandoned the boat, you wont be wanting to face huge clean up costs and fines or prison in Australia. Boat had no chance of being recovered, it became a massive liability in many ways.

[captain58sailin]

Hind sight is always 20/20, and it is easy to say what one would have done in the same situation. In the north your vessel is your lifeline and you don't abandon it lightly. I expect that the individuals here did not leave their vessel lightly. It is a good thing that the arm chair skippers here are not the ones to pass judgement on the folks that had to make that hard decision. A little compassion goes a long way.