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Old 01-03-2013, 06:23   #166
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Blame and responsibility are two different concepts. For example, you are crew on my vessel, you make a mistake steering down big waves, we broach, gybe, a running backstay breaks and we dismast. You are to blame (as the helmsman who f'ed up and broached) but it is my responsibility (as skipper). No problem in my head with that. The buck stops with the skipper. If the helmsman or autopilot is not up to it, the skipper must take other measures with a drogue, sea anchor, lying ahull, heaving to, etc, etc.

If you want to abandon ship, for whatever reason, at least sink the boat as you leave. If you hope and believe it will continue to float, stay with it. The only justification for abandoning a seaworthy, floating vessel is a medical issue. So sink it anyway, out of respect for fellow mariners. If the entire crew is not medically incapacitated, you have a tricky challenge to try to offload the injured and leave the healthy aboard. But if everyone leaves a healthy boat, at least sink the faithful beauty as you turn your treacherous back on her.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:15   #167
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pirate Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

A few have had a pop about the inexperienced going out unprepared on big boats and then abandoning it when the SHTF... this is all to true... and some of us.. me included are guilty of encouragement with statements like 'It's not rocket science..' or 'just buy one and go.. you can learn on the way..' take Blackoak as an example... laudable as his progress is I'd bet squillions if he got in a similar situation we'd be doing exactly this.
The main problem is there's an increasing amount of small dinghy racers and club racers hitting the cruising scene.. they know it all, they can tune a rig to the ultimate point, spin on a penny and walk tall coz they're GOOD...
But I've seen some of these same hard ruthless sailors I've met in B/yards and Marinas around the world turn into quivering wrecks in a blow with 9-12ft seas.. out of sight of land.. or when the first thing breaks in the middle of nowhere...
Maybe for those of us who advogate 'Go Now' its time to start saying... venture offshore with caution... small steps before giant strides..
Know your boat...
but even more important...
Know Youself..
The boat is strong and feels no pain..
Your weak and soft with a crap sense of balance and do ...
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:30   #168
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pirate Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

Forgot to add.. when your 200+ miles out at sea and the **** hits the fan (in spite of all the storm tactic's theory discussed on here) no matter how good a 'Sailor' you are its not worth the spit in your mouth after a week without water..
From my viewpoint from F8 up its survival... 21ft - 37ft - 54 foot
I don't care how big your boat is... ever noticed the ratio in sizes.. and there's a helluva lotta 32ft and less boats doing more distance cruising than big ones.. and a lot fewer incidents.. thats because they hunker down and ride it out..
No macho "I was surfing.. bare poles... at 25kts in a F10 then the Helmsman blew it.."
We're snug, warm n dry suppin soup and reading..
And they're mainly on other forums... like SA...
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:00   #169
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

exactly what boaty sed.....thankyou boatman.

stepping up to the life raft means nothing left for salvors.
once out of your boat , is called abandonment. . fuggeddaboudit.
start over.
live life.
be glad your boat is being salvaged in ireland (or wherever), will cost hugeous amounts...pay the salvor or dont exit the boat in 30 kt winds.
or before your feet get wet on the coach house roof.

and if it is truly your home, why leave it in first place...repair it while underway--the only one who cares about saving your boat is you...
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:00   #170
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

I agree as Boatman (and others) have expressed very well some of the issues of people getting in trouble and hitting the red button way to early. Two quotes come to mind when encouraging people to just go do it and sail off into their dream:

"A man's GOT to know his limitations."- Harry Callahan aka Clint Eastwood

"chance favors only the prepared mind"- Louis Pasteur
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:10   #171
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pirate Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

By the way... not knocking the owners of big boats in general.. its just when I started the best I could afford (1985) at the time was a 500 24ft wooden project that took 18mths to float.. bills/cars/motorbikes/partying...
It took 10yrs sailing various under 27ftrs before I could move up to 32ft... in a little boat 6ft waves look pretty big when your butt's just 18inches above the waterline.. you learn who's the real boss pretty quick..
With experience you move out of the bay and along the coast a bit.. then after a couple of years of that you get bored and go for a 'Big One'.. 67 odd miles across the Channel Poole to Cherborg... then you get really brave after doing Cherborg a few times and hit the Channel Islands... 7kt/40ft tides in Springs.. great fun..
After 10 years 'sailing' these busy tide driven and often stormy waters winters/summers and working in boatyards I felt I'd graduated to a Biscay crossing and heading for the Med.
Not including the Royal Navy time as a seaman... we got around back then..
Today people walk out with the money to buy a 40+ftr at 60... usually a physical mess.. and expect to sail off and be safe 'Coz shes got all the kit...' or 'She's new..'
Your Not Mate... your shagged out..
CF is a forum of the 'more privilged' when it comes to boat size and many relate to their 'Racing Days' but voyaging is different ball game.. its 100% more get there without breaking anything and Zero break anything to get there first..
Don't try and compete.. you'll get your ass kicked

A little something I developed in my youth and refreshed and maintained in my 30's.
To survive offshore you just need a low 'Pucker Factor'
In a blow...? ReefnHeavenHeadBelow..

Seems to me sailing has become a bit like Yosser from 'Boys of the Black Stuff'..
"I can do that.. give us a boat...!!"
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:45   #172
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

Love boatmans posts on this subject. I shake my head in wonder when I hear or see the experience level of some people that figure they are ready to go. I started out in the race crowd, but spent years after that learning all I could form voyages on others boats, practicing tactics I read about,studying navigation and weather and preparing my boat to go offshore. The day I set off I still had a healthy dose of fear to help shape decisions I had to make when things got a bit severe. I work in a field where being calm when there is an element of danger is what brings us home safe everyday. Many people heading out there have no idea how they will react in that situation because they never had to face that type of stress before.
I was excited and scared when I headed out the first time, but I knew I had prepared myself and my boat for years before I left and that preparation served me well. Maybe not everyone feels that is necessary, but I'm glad that was the route I took.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:49   #173
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pirate Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

'Man gits himself a nice big boat, newish babe, Greek fisherman's cap, an a big ol' knife. And everthing's grand until it isn't.

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Old 01-03-2013, 14:15   #174
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

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Good point. Even when the titular captain knows/accepts the risks, the first mate (who maybe didn't want to go in the first place) doesn't and wouldn't except in worst nightmare form. Throw in your children on board ... and mash that big red button.
In my sailing family, as we are working to go offshore for some time, we take care to have either the same level of skill and seamanship, or equivalent skills. To this end, we've done several salt water deliveries on a range of boats, so that we can bring back different impressions of maintenance, storm tactics, watch-standing, etc.

Our 11 year old has been racing Optis and 420s since he was just short of seven. He's at the point now of taking the helm on our 33 footer without rounding up or breaking anything.

We've also taken identical courses in radio work, pilotage/coastal nav, celestial nav and so on. This year, my wife the biologist is taking a diesel maintenance course and I, the diesel installer, am taking a Marine First Aid course. It won't change her titular status as Ship's Doctor, nor mine as Man with Tools, but if she breaks an arm or I need her to get us motoring, there's going to be some cross-over. Two heads are better than one on land and sea.
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Old 01-03-2013, 14:38   #175
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

On the other hand a teenager can borrow a boat and sail around the world in the southern oceans.
I notice at least a couple of the recently lost boats were coming to the end of a 3year or more voyage. Complacency?
Planning, knowing your boat, weather forecasting, and having no timetable is what the cruisers of 20+ years tell me. Still doesn't mean sh.. can't happen.
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Old 01-03-2013, 15:09   #176
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pirate Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

That's the way to do it, Alchemy. People with genuine boat/ocean experience come to know that the boat can take care of them when the spit hits, and don't ever get to that state of terrorized incapacitation that I think leads to calling for help they don't really need, and putting others at risk and expense.

Putting loved ones at risk when they cannot know the score is seamanship at its worst. Let the bleeding hearts and yuppies buy Big Red Button Insurance to cover their butts. The rest of you will be toughing it out because you're giving it your best, not what is convenient. I have to agree with Jimbo: "But if everyone leaves a healthy boat, at least sink the faithful beauty as you turn your treacherous back on her."

I'm hauled out in a sailing village. We've got serious sailors serving coffee and burgers around here. They're often coming and going, hiring out, not just for boat deliveries but to accompany owners and families on trips. I have great respect for boat owners who have enough sense to hire a pro going into the wild blue yonder. I've been offshore. Sometimes it's great. Sometimes it ain't.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:59   #177
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

Saw this today.



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Old 02-03-2013, 03:17   #178
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

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Hi owners of Windigo,

You have probably received some official notification by now about your boat, but just in case you haven't, she has washed ashore on the ocean beach south of Sawtell (approximately 2nm) on the mid-north coast of NSW, Australia. The location is adjacent to the Bongil Bongil National Park. The yacht has been dismasted and has lost it's keel. The hull is damaged but may be salvagable.

Best wishes,
AndyB5
I'm feeling like a complete arsehole just now. I read the quoted post as being posted by the fools who hopped off this perfectly good boat and caused so much trouble. After re reading things I see I got it wrong. AndyB5, please accept my apologies.
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:02   #179
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

I wondered why this thread had popped up again........

Nice posts from Boatman .

Personally I feel that probably the 4 things which have made voyaging long distances over past decades on yachts "safer" (oh, how I hate that word!) and also more accessible to the average joe (starting with boats later in life) are:-

1) Furling headsails
2) GPS
3) Bigger Boats being cheaper and more common and more useable - 40 to 45 foot (plus?!)
4) Communications, especially for weather.


Nothing comes for free, and each of those does come with a downside for those who know no different - when the SHTF......on the boat size thing, bigger is better in sh#tty weather as the weather that affects you needs to be far worse than if you were on sub 30 foot (especially if that nearer 20!) to have the same effect on both the boat and the crew........but the risk is that if all you have known is "normal" bad weather in 45 foot that really bad weather is gonna come as a complete shock! Smaller boat sailors get to experiance the equivalent in places a lot closer to a warm pub than those who venture accross oceans (outside of being able to pick and choose the weather) on 40 / 45 foot. and probably a bit more often!

Not to say that everyone needs to start smaller (albeit IMO if time permits part of how I would recommend folks do it) nor that the apprecinteship (on any size of boat) needs to be 20 years long (or even be complete! before setting off on your adventures) as floating around in boat is not rocket science .........but nonetheless a lot of thought should be given to how you move from baby steps to larger strides to gain own experiance (the stuff that really gets you out of the doodah when the SHTF and keeps you "safe").

With Newbies especially, me tries to both give full on encouragement to start the adventure and also encouraging them to have a lot of caution on how they actually proceed along own learning curve (at own pace is the key!).......probably don't get it exactly right every time , but sue me .
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:28   #180
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

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Great find Coops. Amazing that Windigo survived three months in the ocean with the hatch wide ope like that. Wish the air crewman had ventured down below a little farther so we could see what down below looked like a little more. I guess he was satisfied that there was nobody or no body on board.
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