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Old 28-02-2013, 17:28   #151
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

Like when they're scared to death?
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Old 28-02-2013, 17:29   #152
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

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If a skipper considers lives to be in peril, surely the responsible thing is to call for help - as opposed to callously declaring 'you knew the risks when you came on board son'.
Often people get into more trouble trying to abandon ship. I met a couple that got caught in a big storm north of Bermuda and decided they couldn't take it anymore, called for help, and a huge freighter ended up taking them off. They told us "never again." In the huge seas their little boat was smashed against the side of the freighter and the only way up was a cargo net slung down along the steel side. The man made it to the deck and looked back to see that his wife couldn't get up, but had managed to hook her arms through the netting and was being smashed against the ship. With a Herculean effort the crew on deck and the husband managed to pull the net, wife and all, up onto the deck. They both said that they were sure they were going to die during the "rescue." Leaving your boat is not to be taken lightly.
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Old 28-02-2013, 18:08   #153
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

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While some apparently find this insightful, I don't quite see it nor does it make any sense. Wanna sail around the world, accept the risks.
I would add "know the risks, know how to mitigate those risks, and accept that not all risks can be mitigated, or anticipated. Merely most of 'em".
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Old 28-02-2013, 22:11   #154
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I would add "know the risks, know how to mitigate those risks, and accept that not all risks can be mitigated, or anticipated. Merely most of 'em".
Good point. Even when the titular captain knows/accepts the risks, the first mate (who maybe didn't want to go in the first place) doesn't and wouldn't except in worst nightmare form. Throw in your children on board ... and mash that big red button.

I get it but my long-held view is the other folk shouldn't be there in the first place. The dumbing down of navigation and weather info has created the environment we have here today where someone with a good job and some disposable income stumbles onto CF and thinks: "I'm going to sail around the world. What boat should I buy?"

And the trend to ever larger vessels helps create a false feeling of invincibility. At least I think it does. In Mr. Kettlewell's example and the Windigo example, it would seem that if those sailors had battened down in real sea berths in dryish clothes with some hot soup prepared when the S started to HTF, eventually the wind dies. I'd have some cello/violin music as a sidebar to the wind shrieking in the rigging.

Awhile back we all saw that really scary video of big seas. Would-be offshore sailors should be made aware of and watch this stuff. They can't accept risks they are unaware of. The "Milk Run" and the "Coconut ..." makes it all sound so nice and apparently it usually is but ... but ... but. At minimum, if you can't climb the net on a freighter, or go up your own mast in a pinch, maybe you have no business offshore.

End of rant. Ya' gotta feel sorry feel sorry for seahorses.
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Old 28-02-2013, 23:07   #155
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

You're a tough guy Blue Crab.
So your child is knocked off a bike on a busy road but no one should venture to help? He should have known the risks and accept the consequences!!
Your wife has baby delivery problems risking mother & child and you say she should have know the risks? The doctors risk being sued so they shouldn't help?

Life's a risk and when we can we help one another through it.
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Old 28-02-2013, 23:29   #156
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You're a tough guy Blue Crab.
So your child is knocked off a bike on a busy road but no one should venture to help? He should have known the risks and accept the consequences!!
Your wife has baby delivery problems risking mother & child and you say she should have know the risks? The doctors risk being sued so they shouldn't help?

Life's a risk and when we can we help one another through it.
+ 1, or your a tough guy on an Internet forum.
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Old 01-03-2013, 00:26   #157
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

Oh come on...you guys are putting words in Crabbie's mouth! You all have points. No one is saying they should be left to die! He's saying more and more unprepared people are getting boats and going to sea...and more and more are being rescued. We live in a time when we ought to see FEWER problems, after all, we've had CENTURIES to learn this stuff!!!!

ANYONE can get in trouble...and hittin' the big red button is often the right thing to do...just maybe NOT as often as it's done, that's all.
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:24   #158
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

Maybe I'm from another planet, call it poor East European, but if your car breaks in a small village at 3 am in the morning, chances are an old man will come out and ask if you need food or water. Having no highway you need to drive thru all those small villages on your way to anywhere. A road rescue is something many can't afford. Is not uncommon to leave to car in the old man's yard until you can fix it. No money required. Leaving the car in the open field is another story, you have all the chances to find only the chassis after the gipsies strip it off.

Being the brother of a bike mechanic, I can't remember one family trip outside town that we didn't meet a biker in need of help. Rule of the house is that first things that goes in the car are the tools. Last summer, when returning from a week-end trip to a saline resort, 20 km down the road was one guy trying to figure why his bikes stopped. Took 3 hours to bypass the fuel pump and have him heading home. Some fuel tanks are too damn low for our gravity. Second rule is that you can't take money for fixing something on the road. If one comes later to the shop for a proper repair, that's another story.

Now for boating, I'm a wannabe with a two months term to put on water a boat that's 2.000 miles away. I grew up with father's stories about trying to keep sandwiches on a plate in 20 feet seas and the trip around Europe from Black Sea to North Sea and back during his 2 year service in the Navy. And I can't agree with half what's been said here. I figure being on a mountain, 20+ km away from any shelter, at -10 Celsius, in a snow storm, at night (you can even add without proper equipment as we usually had none), knowing you can make max 1 km/hour if you make NO mistake, counts for being close to whatever mother earth can throw at you. A red button and someone passing by to pick you up is a luxury I can't imagine. Still, I'm glad for them hitting the button.
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:27   #159
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pirate Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

Exactamundo, Gordo. Thank you.

Edit: Over a lifetime of boating, I have helped and been helped many times but the time I remember best is rescuing two terrified guys on a sinking fishing boat. They didn't have a screwdriver to tighten a hose clamp. If they had had an Epirb they would have pushed the button I'm sure. I am just as disgusted telling this story on an internet forum as I am telling it anywhere else.
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:48   #160
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

catakate...I read that 3 times and I cannot figure out your point. I understand that english is your second language, but it's not that...what part of what you have read don't you agree with and why? I don't know anyone who would pass a fellow sailor in trouble if they could help. As most do, I have plenty of those stories.

This has turned into a disscussion of, among other things, people who are not really prepared to take on the challenge but go anyway assuming the EPIRB will save them (I'm not saying that's the case here) What is it you're saying?
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:06   #161
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

It is very difficult to put down someone who has pushed the big red one. We are all tough guys who can handle anything, until we are tired, cold, injured and seasick.

Noone really knows how they will react until they have been there. And noone knows if how they will react the second time.

an example is that studies have shown time and again, that in war, about 25-30% of the troops never fire their weapons - even when been heavily attacked and firing their weapon is a matter of survival.

If you freeze when someone is shooting at you, what will you do when you think the ship is going down?

I have been in a couple of life-theatening situations, and happily, I reacted calmly and walked away from both within injury. I think I will react well if he chips are down on a boat in a storm - but damn if I know for certain. I try to practice everything so at least I'll have a chance at doing it right in an emergency.

When should we abandon ship? different in every case and for every person.

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Old 01-03-2013, 04:09   #162
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

Gordo,

I've seen lots of people wearing sneakers going up to a peak covered in 2+ feet of snow, or at least willing to. That may be the case for many going for an ocean passage. I even agree that an idiot, by definition, is a person that is not capable of being aware of dangers is exposed to.

My point is they are not to blame for getting in that situation. They are responsible for any consequence, but not for getting there. That would equal blaming Edison for not getting the bulb to lit from the first try. Also not to blame for hitting the red button.

Edit: maybe half was too much said, but when comparing two sides, one looks like half
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:39   #163
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

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Gordo,

My point is they are not to blame for getting in that situation. They are responsible for any consequence, but not for getting there.
Sorry friend...that's just plain silly. And WRONG!!!!! Again maybe lost in translation but they...and they ALONE...ARE to blame. Even if they did NOTHING WRONG....who else could ever be responsible ?
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:49   #164
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

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Sorry friend...that's just plain silly. And WRONG!!!!! Again maybe lost in translation but they...and they ALONE...ARE to blame. Even if they did NOTHING WRONG....who else could ever be responsible ?
In my view, to blame and responsible are two different things! My 2 cents
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:41   #165
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Re: Merged- Windigo Abandoned. Please Help

EPIRGs need to come with mandatory international rescue insurance.

There were just some fools pulled into St Augustine. they drifted for 7 days after getting a line stuck in there prop. Sails were fine, they were 86 and 74 or something. Maybe that should go in the "how old is too old"

Was a cheap rescue though as they weren't rescued till the boat drifted ashore as I guess they had no radio or couldn't work it.
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