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Old 18-02-2011, 12:53   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Pay attention, youngsters. If a current abeam pushes unevenly against the boat's hull/keel/rudder, causing the boat to pivot, then helm will need to be applied to correct for this once moving forward. That amount of helm, which would add to weather helm on one tack and subtract from it on the other, could make the rig appear to be out of trim.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case in the OP's situation. I'm merely suggesting that it would be easy to test for this on a windless day.
current doesn't exactly "push"unless it pushes against something relatively.A boat carried in a simple straightforward current,say the middle of the channel,is not against anything except the air.Remove the air and tell me again.(per my post above?)
so,You can only mean an eddie-because you haven't confirmed that the air is involved...a variation in current.Boat partly in one faster stream partly in the other slower stream.It happens alright.And it's true would momentarily affect helm.But is a second or two.The boat may even get stuck on the tideline....

IF the current and the apparent wind ARE the same or exactly opposite in direction across the entire channel,Current has no "Changing" effect to helm. But if the current varies as it is very wont to do,in direction as a vector to any wind it will affect apparent wind differently on each tack as can be easily shown at one of the links above partcularly English Bay ( which I am very familiar with).I call one the "good Tack"the other is the "soggy Tack"...... therefore affect weather helm.You need note it does need moving air,wind,and a no-REALwind day will not do.

Both are needed for current(the variable)and REAL wind (assumed steady here) to affect apparent wind and therefore weather helm.The current(the variable) can therefore affect -wait for it- weather helm.
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Old 18-02-2011, 13:45   #47
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Originally Posted by bob perry View Post
Exactly, you prove my point. This is supposed to be about sailing not angels dancing on the head of a pin.

You need to get out on a boat. do some racing , get in touch with the reality of sailing. If you donlt race you are a hacker. Racing is where you learn the nuances/reality of what makes a boat go.

Or, you can sit in your garden blowing dandelions.
My,my. You judge.Without fact.But I leave it there.because,Were I an old woman sitting in a rocking chair in the sahara desert yet handy with my physics and dandelions,I have still not heard the contrary argument from you beyond the votes of your racing buddies,who,sadly,do not post.
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Old 18-02-2011, 17:54   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Pay attention, youngsters. If a current abeam pushes unevenly against the boat's hull/keel/rudder, causing the boat to pivot, then helm will need to be applied to correct for this once moving forward. That amount of helm, which would add to weather helm on one tack and subtract from it on the other, could make the rig appear to be out of trim.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case in the OP's situation. I'm merely suggesting that it would be easy to test for this on a windless day.
I am paying attention pops,

And I will go out and try this one day.

But in the meantime, for the sake of hypothetical discussion, which every discussion on this forum is, I have to say that I don't really agree with your line of thought.

I would have thought in the absence of true wind and ignoring the apparent wind that will be generated by the current, (which at 2kts is too insignificant to make way) that the boat has no idea that there is any current at all.

If the current is even, the boat will sit like a twig or a barrel and they will all glide down together. You could drag the spinnaker in the water behind you or a para anchor off the bow. It won't make a stroke of difference, you will still be looking at that stick in the water next to you.
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Old 18-02-2011, 18:22   #49
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Well fellas, the last I saw of our original poster Juan, he was making a run for the mountainsyelling something about sailing being too complicated.
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Old 18-02-2011, 18:36   #50
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Right,Bewitched.Right,slowshoes...it seemed a simple question...anyways back to my doily making.
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Old 18-02-2011, 18:39   #51
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Doilies? Well we have that in common. I just wrap mine around scotch bottles and call it macrame.
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Old 18-02-2011, 20:05   #52
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Well Happy Seagull I am not a racing buddy of Bob's, in fact I have never met him. I don't owe him any favors and have never owned one of his boats. I did say in another thread that I like the Nordic series, and I also like the Tayana 48 so maybe there's a bias. On the other hand I did race for 30 years, although I can't claim to be a rock star. Does a 3rd in a OD fleet of 60 count ? I have beaten world champions in races but never in regattas despite years of trying. I won the Block Island race once many years ago . . . . . anyway . . .

I'm afraid he is right.

Out there in real races in real places you can't feel current on the tiller. It never gives you weather helm or lee helm. What it gives you is higher or lower pointing but without a fixed reference point such as a shore or an anchored boat you can't feel it or see it. A chartplotter or GPS would also tell you.

I am not qualified to comment on theoretical weather conditions.
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Old 19-02-2011, 10:05   #53
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Savoir,hi.Can you say why it doesn't?
I say, given a 25' boat with some weather helm crosses into a current that increases the apparent wind will have more weather helm.The wind didn't actually increase,so the current is responsible.

But, actual question was if current can change tack to tack.I say,yes it can,IF the current is NOT "in line" with whatever wind is blowing.

It's not so theoretical.I see and feel the above everywhere in my own boat (with weather helm)here on the coast of BC,Canada.Tides can be 16 feet .Currents can be 12 knots.
The OP has 2.5 knots,he says.But that's enough.

I assume you have read previous posts.If you can see the error,then describe it. "Why" is better than comparing seatime.I could sail in Lake Superior for 50 years and never see this? but it don't make it not so.
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Old 19-02-2011, 11:09   #54
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...and there's this:
How do I KNOW you are Famous Medal Winning Sailor or Yacht Designer?Or presently sailing through a maelstrom in Norway?You could be someone else online that's stolen these people's reputation...not unheard of or even so uncommon.So,it's easier to just keep to the facts.If you can explain something,what else matters?
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Old 20-02-2011, 15:58   #55
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eating crow

...AND I see a mistake I own in post#46. "in direction as a vector to any wind it will affect apparent wind differently on each tack as can be easily shown" is wrong,wrong,wrong.Maybe I can complete it as I meant it: "per waves affecting boat speed...sailing in troughs on the soggy tack,pointing into chop on the hard-tack".That relies on the current being the cause of the "vectored" waves,so it's merely a possibility.
likewise Imyself have no clue what this meant(but I wrote it!) " if current can change tack to tack.I say,yes it can,IF the current is NOT "in line" with whatever wind is blowing."As written still wrong.


Anyways,after re-reading all posts,and assuming the duration of a tack is longer than 0 time,0 distance.and that a 25'boat exhibits some "weather helm"..OP asks I `ve felt more weather helm that on starboard (same wind, same sail trim). Ive checked the mast set up with some locals and it seems ok, (rake, shroud tension). I sail on the Parana river in Argentina which has a 2.5 knot current!. Could have been the current the responsible for that?

Since an argument devolved to "can current effect weather helm?"as it often does in a forum...
1)When:true wind,current,and waves are in line (or 180 degrees),sail trim and boatspeed will be the same and helm will not vary.
If wind has effect on weather helm,Current must too.Current versus wind is the same as "more wind"Current affects weather helm.
BUT,Tacking has no effect on weather helm tack to tack.

2)When:true wind steady and current varies in speed but is still "inline" as to direction.Any Resulting wave chop only due to current+wind is also assumed in-line..but varying somewhat.
Current speed increases/decreases against the wind.Sailtrim was not changed,boat heels more and more weather helm momentarily while the navigator puzzles the new condition.A gust of wind is the same thing.Navigator elects to keep the WeatherHelm the same.
So,current hasn't affected his weather helm ...as long as he's able to point higher and maintain the Apparent wind as exactly the same.Maybe to the point where the sails are useless and the chop stops him.

But,if "sail trim" means keeping sails "full " as they were before,
boat heels more,goes faster, brings the apparent therefore incident angle closer to where it was per sail trim but stronger.So, Weather helm has been increased by the current.It's the only change.It's the same as having a plain gust of wind which affects weather helm .

But,changing Current does not affect Weather helm tack-to-tack
.. unless the boat happens to progress to a place where it "seems to"on a particular tack.It's a possibility.IE: clearing a Breakwater,rounding a point,thereby entering a new current regime..


When:True wind is steady,current is steady but has a different vector to True wind.
Weather Helm won't change tack to tack.....Unless a wave train of current+wind is included...Wave direction is commonly different from the wind without current being anyway involved but as a possibility,in a river or channel,current's contribution,eg:One tack more in the troughs,on the other more pitching,is pretty strong.This is similar to a plain ol crosswind,also possible.This will make each tack "different"....and the case is like 2) above..I think this means Yes,a change in Weather Helm tack to tack is possible due to current....
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Old 20-02-2011, 18:32   #56
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You continue to transpose weather helm and pointing. They are different.

I have never:

(a) won a medal
(b) designed a yacht
(c) won a regatta
(d) been to Norway.
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Old 21-02-2011, 06:50   #57
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pirate Re: Mast Trimming Help !

This is a tough read. Think I'll go back to easier threads like which is the best anchor, or cruising the Caribbe on a dollar a day.
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Old 21-02-2011, 06:54   #58
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Re: Mast Trimming Help !

Nah ! Them's pussy threads. Go check mono vs multi or ginger vs maryanne.
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Old 22-02-2011, 13:07   #59
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Re: Mast Trimming Help !

Quote:
Originally Posted by savoir View Post
You continue to transpose weather helm and pointing. They are different.

I have never:

(a) won a medal
(b) designed a yacht
(c) won a regatta
(d) been to Norway.

Ah.indeed sorry if you think that "...
How do I KNOW you are...etc "was "directed"at or about you or anyone else for that matter.In fact I was fanciful about myself per maelstroms in a lighthearted way-not you at all.I've never been to Norway,but I have sailed in currents.That's all.You,yourself offered a comprehensive guide to mast tuning.

...Including an excellent tip seldom considered-"off centre mast collar".If someone then posted, "I've been sailing 200 years and I've never seen an off centre mast collar" you could only say....well,what?Maybe nothing IS best,I begin to agree,except that an off-centre mast collar IS an excellent idea and a very possible solution,I think,to Juan's problem.Too bad it hasn't been argued.
As you can guess,in the event,I would "elucidate".You...wisely?-might not.
So,Elucidator that I am,
I brought "Pointing higher "in peripherally as it relates to weather helm...as in maintaining the APPARENT WIND to Maintain an unchanging "weather helm"..Likewise ,waves.It's my attempt to describe somewhat of what I experience,(or think I do!)pertinent to Juan's question.And therefore to opine as to "Weather Helm" and current's effect.
I'm suprised that some other posters disqualify current out-of-hand, except maybe as something undetectable pertaining onlyto the passing shoreline while to me,it seems obvious that it's a factor that in it's simplest manifestation affects apparent wind and wave on any sailboat.It also seems to me, that racing class boats might rely on just such a detail to win (as in "Local Knowledge").The effect can be negligible or great depending on true wind and wave.But current-river+tidal- is an effect easily separated from true wind and not relying upon it.

So,I can't yet accept the "corrections" to my view ,because they either don't offer any model,or when offered,and rebutted,haven't been defended further.
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Old 22-02-2011, 13:18   #60
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Re: Mast Trimming Help !

If schools out can we go sailing now?
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