Marital counseling

[weavis]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

All I'll say is be wary of martial advice from divorced people, particularly ones that have had multiple marriages. It's sort of like legal advice from a convicted felon

the convicted felon would most likely give you the most reliable advice

[senormechanico]

The perfect sized boat (at least for us) is too small on the outside and too big on the bottom when painting it.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by weavis

the convicted felon would most likely give you the most reliable advice

It should not be true but on reflection it just may be!

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by weavis

the convicted felon would most likely give you the most reliable advice

At least in what not to do anyway


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[brookiesailor]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Hi Brookie,

First, I apologize if my initial, flip comment put you off. The issue is a very common one and very appropriate to cruising. That being said I would take with a grain of salt all advise (including mine because as Ann Cate points out, we all bring our own baggage to the discussion) you get from this or any other public forum.

One question. It isn't completely clear but from the context of your questions it sounds like you (the plural you) are shopping for a new boat? If so, maybe consider one just a few years old. The depreciation is typically huge on sailboats so your SO could get more boat and still have a nice chunk of change left over to bank for the college fund.

Please note that you shouldn't think you are settling for less quality or questionable condition buying a used boat. New ones always come with their own issues and I have read of buyers spending months and months sorting out problems with new boats. A used boat has already been through the debugging process so may in fact be less work than a new one.

Regarding how to deal with this in the context of your relationship, that only you can decide. How important is the relationship vs your desire to go cruising? How much do you feel that you were deceived or short changed by the failure of your SO to follow the initial plan? What truly is going on with your SO that has caused him to change the plan? Is it time for you to make this a major issue, even a relationship deal breaker? Very serious questions and again, only you can make the decisions.

The best of luck dealing with this. Hope it sorts out and we see you on the water one day soon.

Skipmac,
We are looking at both new and used at this point. Our focus has been on a passport 515/545 with three cabins to accomidate the kids. There are no 545 for sale as they are new to production and I have come to the conclusion that they are just too big. The 515 has had some three cabins for sale but that was when we were in Angola and it was not feasible to have a boat. Now that we have the ability to keep a boat I haven't seen one with three cabins for sale. Buying a new boat gives us time to figure out a plan that will work for both of us. It delays the delivery for about two years at which point we will have a definite idea of what is next. We could wait and try and find a used boat at that point which is also a possibility.

I had a conversation, though brief, with hubby last night who assures me we are getting close. I plan on getting information together on the two boats (HC 48T & passport 515) and together coming up with a plan that is feasible. I know he is going to choose the passport but I need to have options. I need a plan or it becomes a tug of war.

I have been married 20 years, not likely to be a deal breaker, but rather a slow and steady understanding of its importance. Hubby and I met sailboat racing while I was in college. We sailed together fro years in dingy s before we had kids. This is OUR dream. I guess I am pushing the time line and he is holding to it. My family dies young, both my parents were dead before 60. I am 44. Life just seems really short


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[BandB]

Wifey B: It's not a freaking agreement. It's a plan. Things change. To me there are two issues. One is timing. One is boat. They need to be disconnected and discussed separately. Have an honest talk about those issues and about what makes you want to do it now and him want to slow it down. If a counselor facilitates those talks then use one, not to throw open your entire relationship but to assist in understanding what each other is thinking on this.

Are the larger boats just a delay to see the kids into college or graduating? I sure the heck don't know if you don't and it appears you don't. Is he scared in some way of a smaller boat? Is he thinking larger boat because he wants to provide you the best possible? Maybe he's read about too many capsizing. You never know what might be at play.

So back to two discussions. First your ideal boat, totally disregarding the issue of timing and money. Make your points, hear his, good chance you'll reach a better understanding. Then separately, the timing. Based on finances, where the kids are in life. How much does his continued working and moving tie to wanting to provide you the best? How much to fear of not having enough to live as he wants? How much to just not wanting to go anywhere until the kids are further along in life?

Something tells me if you hear each other out on these two subjects you'll find the ability to reach an understanding. And to these guys saying an agreement has been made, bullc... Agreeing on an unknown future? Wonder how many divorces they have.

I've got to say one more thing Brookie and I don't mean it offensively. You act like you made the big sacrifice to move. Didn't you agree jointly and do it for the two of you? Perhaps the two of you need to better recognize the sacrifices the other has made. You sound a bit like a spoiled, pampered wife and nothing wrong with that, I sure the heck am. He may not understand that still it was difficult for you to move each time and leave all your friends behind. Maybe he feels like he made all the sacrifices. On the other hand, make sure you understand the sacrifices he's made. Sure sounds like his intent of providing for his family was good and something tells me his family has been well provided for, yourself included. Now seems like time to sit down and reassess your life goals with each other and bring things back into a balance.

[brookiesailor]

Originally Posted by BandB

Wifey B: It's not a freaking agreement. It's a plan. Things change. To me there are two issues. One is timing. One is boat. They need to be disconnected and discussed separately. Have an honest talk about those issues and about what makes you want to do it now and him want to slow it down. If a counselor facilitates those talks then use one, not to throw open your entire relationship but to assist in understanding what each other is thinking on this.



Are the larger boats just a delay to see the kids into college or graduating? I sure the heck don't know if you don't and it appears you don't. Is he scared in some way of a smaller boat? Is he thinking larger boat because he wants to provide you the best possible? Maybe he's read about too many capsizing. You never know what might be at play.



So back to two discussions. First your ideal boat, totally disregarding the issue of timing and money. Make your points, hear his, good chance you'll reach a better understanding. Then separately, the timing. Based on finances, where the kids are in life. How much does his continued working and moving tie to wanting to provide you the best? How much to fear of not having enough to live as he wants? How much to just not wanting to go anywhere until the kids are further along in life?



Something tells me if you hear each other out on these two subjects you'll find the ability to reach an understanding. And to these guys saying an agreement has been made, bullc... Agreeing on an unknown future? Wonder how many divorces they have.



I've got to say one more thing Brookie and I don't mean it offensively. You act like you made the big sacrifice to move. Didn't you agree jointly and do it for the two of you? Perhaps the two of you need to better recognize the sacrifices the other has made. You sound a bit like a spoiled, pampered wife and nothing wrong with that, I sure the heck am. He may not understand that still it was difficult for you to move each time and leave all your friends behind. Maybe he feels like he made all the sacrifices. On the other hand, make sure you understand the sacrifices he's made. Sure sounds like his intent of providing for his family was good and something tells me his family has been well provided for, yourself included. Now seems like time to sit down and reassess your life goals with each other and bring things back into a balance.

BandB,
I like that you put the disclaimer about being spoiled as at this very moment I am VERY spoiled, which came out of years of deprivation. So call me spoiled and pampered and I will say that in some senses I have earned the title. Does it make my gripes any less relevant? Nope.

I like that you said it is two different conversations. And it is somewhat true. But selecting a boat is somewhat about what you can afford and when so it is difficult to separate them out. In discussing a completely different topic tonight I got a glimpse of a time line. Three years. But like I said it was on a different subject. I can live with that as long as he doesn't move the bar again.


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[BandB]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

All I'll say is be wary of martial advice from divorced people, particularly ones that have had multiple marriages. It's sort of like legal advice from a convicted felon


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Wifey B: AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TanzerTom]

Charter. Then see if he still wants to sail. Somehow money being tight and shopping for a 60' boat doesn't ring quite right. If you think money is tight before you buy... well, I'll let the more experienced handle that one... 😱


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[brookiesailor]

Tom,
Money is far from tight, we are just conservative people. I know that owning a boat is like digging a giant hole in your back yard and throwing money into it. I am not a stranger to boat ownership, though on a much smaller scale.

I am preparing a presentation for him to set up a plan. I need something concrete to work towards. I am suggesting a two year time line, to either obtain a boat (new) or look (used). That will give us time to join a YC and get put on the waiting list for a slip. In the mean time we charter on vacations and get to the next level with certifications.

I am volunteering at the YC this weekend as part of my application. I look forward to helping out.


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[TanzerTom]

Originally Posted by brookiesailor

Tom,
Money is far from tight, we are just conservative people. I know that owning a boat is like digging a giant hole in your back yard and throwing money into it. I am not a stranger to boat ownership, though on a much smaller scale.

I am preparing a presentation for him to set up a plan. I need something concrete to work towards. I am suggesting a two year time line, to either obtain a boat (new) or look (used). That will give us time to join a YC and get put on the waiting list for a slip. In the mean time we charter on vacations and get to the next level with certifications.

I am volunteering at the YC this weekend as part of my application. I look forward to helping out.


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Someone is one lucky husband! My wife reinforces the truism that it's easier to get forgiveness than permission, something I practice quite often when it comes to car, bikes, and boats

[jtsailjt]

Money may not be tight in the sense that you're starving but if you buy a 60' boat while paying 100% of your kids educations at expensive schools, almost any budget would be strained. It makes MUCH more sense to me to buy the 50' boat and use the money you save to help launch the kids successfully and take the pressure off both of you.

Boat expenses go up logarithmically with the size of the boat. More initial expense, more insurance, more maintenance, more cost every time you rent a slip or get hauled out or stored, bigger and more expensive hardware, bigger sails, bigger engine, more things you will have to hire professionals to help you with. The difference in 60 vs 50 feet is huge and that will continue every day you own the boat. My wife and I went through this thought process and settled on a boat in the high 40's in length as the ideal compromise for us even though we have money in the bank to afford a larger boat. Our situation sounds similar to yours, with 3 kids ranging in age from HS freshman to HS senior, all planning on college.

I've seen several other couples in this same situation too, the most extreme case being one where mom and dad had a custom 76 footer built with separate cabins for each kid/spouse. Kids don't all need their own cabins and if they have them, they will barely get used. They will have summer jobs and sports/activities they participate in and other places they want to be and friends they want to hang out with and once they begin college they will become only very occasional visitors aboard your boat. Finding even 2 or 3 days in a row where they aren't tied up with something else will become almost impossible. if they want to be there with you, they won't mind taking a turn sleeping on the settee or even on an air mattress on the sole or in the cockpit. If they'd really prefer to be somewhere else, wouldn't you prefer that they be somewhere else too? Also, the times that the stars all align so that more than one kid has that much time available to go cruising for even a few days will be few, so it will rarely happen that you and all of your kids will be aboard overnight at one time. 60' is just not necessary and for most families, it is way too big!

Also, since you obviously are not really financially strapped, I don't understand the concern about the kids regarding money. Is it school expenses that he's concerned about? My parents told me that they'd pay for 1/2 of the cost of a good state school and I had to pay the rest. I worked hard summers and saved every cent I could, and came very close to covering my half, within a couple of hundred dollars each year. I'd say that this was the ideal situation for my learning about life and budgeting and prioritizing. It also led me to think long and hard about choosing a major that would pay me back for the investment I was going to make in myself. That's a whole different thought process from a kid who is just "going to college" with little or no serious thought of whether he's preparing himself for anything he really wants/intends to do afterwards or will pay him back for the sweat and $$$ he's investing in achieving that degree. I had the test scores necessary and did successfully apply to an "elite" engineering school, but chose not to go. For me, that decision became obviously the right one because I learned that the professors at the state school I chose had a LOT more engineering knowledge to teach me than my mind could possibly absorb in 4 years so a more elite and expensive education at that stage would have been wasted on me. My niece recently made the exact same choice I did for her undergraduate degree(s) and graduated with no debt and is now almost 3/4 of the way through an elite Boston med school. I just think that lots of parents buy into the idea that writing a HUGE check for the very best education money can buy equates with doing the best thing for their kids, but I don't think that's true in most cases. Better for the kid to have some skin in the game and contribute financially as much as they can and learn some other life lessons in the process, while taking some of the pressure off parents so they can enjoy activities like owning and cruising aboard their sailboat before they are dead.

Good luck sorting all this out with your husband. It sounds to me like owning and cruising aboard a very nice 50'ish boat is well within your grasp right now, and I hope you can persuade your husband that it's the best course for you and him AND your kids futures too. Life IS short!

[brookiesailor]

Jtsailjt,
Thank you for your input. My husband's job right now covers the cost of a very expensive boarding school for the older two. And my youngest is due to start there the year after next. He would like to get all three kids through HS with equal footing on the future. He is less worried about college as they will work and drive and such. He is concerned about a good foundation which the boarding school provides. And all things being equal he would like to provide that to the third kid as well. His work is a little unstable at the moment but he is not in danger of losing his job. He just worries how he would foot the bill for the third boy if he were to be unemployed or transferred back to the us. So it is a matter of wants not needs yet again. IMHO we can afford both if we are careful. He says soon. We have yet to have our conversation. Probably tomorrow.


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[valhalla360]

It's a contractual agreement and thou shall comply...is not how a successful marrage works. Of course agreeing to something and then backing out also isn't how a successful marrage works.

My suggestion is to set aside a time to discuss your future cruising plans (probably without the boys). Make it a fun event (like planning a vacation). Play dumb a little and have him explain to you why you need a 60' boat and the latest $50k electronics suite (or whatever other expensive options seem to be moving the bar). Talk about what an average day might look like. Where you will travel. How you will get maintenance and spare parts taken care of. How will you do laundry and grocery shopping and other mundane tasks. How will you pay for the lifestyle year after year. Go beyond
- He might convince you of his logic (you never know)
- More likely it will force him to admit why he is moving the bar.

Until you know why the bar is moving, it's unlikely you will be able to hold it in position. No matter how self assured he may seem on the outside, it can be a scary thing to sell everything and set sail into the sunset. You need to make him feel safe to share what his real concerns are. If he's like most men, they would rather shoot himself in the foot than admit a weakness. Corner him and he will likey clam up and become entrenched in his disire to put up obsticals.

[JPA Cate]

valhalla360,

That's beautiful practical psychology! Good on ya!

Brookie,

If you put your husband in the role of "Wise Man" by asking lots of down to earth questions, how could he not answer them?

Your kids are being prepared for leaving the nest, so in a very short while, you will not even "need" the room of a 50 footer. For a temporary basis, kids can share sleeping spaces. There are some 3 cabin boats even in 40 ft. lengths.

Don't know about your man, but some of them want to send all their kids to college; and to others, it's unimportant or less important. If he's concerned you'll get angry at having the sailing goal postponed, he may try to just avoid the issue. You may be looking at a longer term commitment on his part than you at first realized.

If, through questioning, you find your husband's goals to be worthy, maybe you guys could just get a little boat, a daysailer of some sort, to enjoy till you've launched all the children.

Ann