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Old 22-09-2008, 22:56   #121
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Just found this thread. Sounds a bit like we're heading along the same path but with different boats. Mine is a Farr 1104 so slightly smaller and older.

It's probably a bit late to add my 2 cents worth on a couple of items but for anyone else reading the thread ...

On my boat someone, probably the original owner, had decided it would be nice to stick shag pile carpet all over the saloon as a headlining. Sounds gross ... and it was. It was the first thing to go but left all the glue behind. I found the best way of getting glue off was to do nothing ... well at least initially. If its a contact adhesive type glue, which is probably is, water, heat and exposure to air makes it loose its grip. So after a couple of months you can run over it with a scraper to get most of it off, followed by a kitchen scourer. Or if its still a bit tough a wire brush in an electric drill with convince it to come off. Much easier than sand paper. Only downside is having to put up with an unsightly look for a while. Once I got it off I went over it with flowcoat. No evidence of the carpet now and looks heaps better.

I also had to look at the hatches as both were cracked and one badly crazed. Luckily the frames were in reasonable condition. Instead of replacing the entire hatches I got the acrylic replaced for about 1/3 the cost of a new hatch. I took the hatches off by knocking the hinge pins out, took them to Mr Acrylic Man, picked them up a couple of days later with the new acrylic nicely fitted and got them back on the boat. They looked brand new. But got a few small marks on them pretty quickly ... such is life. I also did the cabin windows at the same time.

I've also had the mast out and found similar problems to yours. Like you've found its definitely worth getting things done when you have the opportunity. Luckily mine had swept back spreaders so I could dispense with runners. I've still got all the fittings to put them on again if I ever want to. I'd suggest to anyone looking at a similar project to see if they could change to swept back spreaders. Obviously it is going to mean changing the chainplates but it is an option which can be looked at.

Lastly I was going to say it sounds like you've done the inside and are now moving to the outside. I've done the opposite. I've replaced everything on the deck other than two blocks on the backstay. Winches are now all self-tailers. And I went for oversize winches - two sizes bigger than what was recommended. I went for Lewmars as they seemed the best value for money at the time. I did have to change the cabin top to fit everything by building up new bases for the wiches and jammers. I worked out it took about 40 hours per side, but now they're in and painted they look like originals. A lot stronger too.

Halyards etc all go through jammers or cleats on the cabin top. All the controls are on the cabin top or in the cockpit. It is definitely worth spending time working out the deck layout. Everything is within easy reach and it is quite easy for two of us to sail the boat. Actually other than getting the sails up and down one person can sail the boat quite comfortably even without an autohelm.

I still race the boat but will be cruising more in the not too distant future ... finger crossed. The changes to the deck layout make life easier for a full crew as well as when we're sailing short handed.

Now I just got to get stuck into the interior ...
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Old 22-09-2008, 23:04   #122
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Peter - welcome to the forum - sounds like you started with a good baseline and are making it into what you really want. Sounds rewarding.

Welcome aboard and I look forward to more installments and maybe some photos!
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Old 22-09-2008, 23:29   #123
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The advantage of doing the exterior first is tht at least you can go sailing while working on the interior.

Do not totally dismiss carpeting as a headlining. I used a very short pile one with a felt backing. It has significantly improved the insulation.

I think it looks fine, so did everybody who saw it, and so does the guy who has bought the boat!

It is very much in the choice of the carpet type.


If you want to remove the glue, I agree that leaving it exposed for a while does make it more brittle, and an electric brush will do the job, but make sure that te wire is brass not steel, and use a slow speed, otherwise you are quickly into the gelcoat. Most important - wear full body protection, including gloves, glasses and mask. Clear the boat beforehand of ALL items as that will make the clear up afterwards a lot easier This is a very mesy procedure!
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Old 23-09-2008, 06:46   #124
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The advantage of doing the exterior first is the at least you can go sailing while working on the interior.
Yep ... That was the plan. Even though things aren't finished most of them won't put the boat out of action.

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Do not totally dismiss carpeting as a headlining. I used a very short pile one with a felt backing. It has significantly improved the insulation.

I think it looks fine, so did everybody who saw it, and so does the guy who has bought the boat!

It is very much in the choice of the carpet type.
Depends on the condition of the carpet. When the surveyor makes a comment about the "decor" of a boat it must be pretty bad ...

After approximately 30 years it was well past its use-by-date. Previous owners had changed fittings at various times and drilled and filled holes through the carpet.

When I took it off I found it had been masking a number of problems. I'm currently fixing two major leaks from the cockpit lockers into the quarter berths. I suspect the carpet kept absorbing the water so it wasn't obvious that things were leaking ...

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... Clear the boat beforehand of ALL items as that will make the clear up afterwards a lot easier This is a very messy procedure!
I've come to conclusion any work on a boat is messy. I keep an old vacuum cleaner on the boat and regularly run over most of the interior.
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Old 23-09-2008, 07:51   #125
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Any headlining that has lasted 30 years deserves renewal!
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Old 07-10-2008, 14:44   #126
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Quick update:

Mast sanded, etch primed, high build primed and topcoat resprayed - check
All new halyard sheaves & pins - check
All new wiring in the mast, new steaming & deck lights - check
New Masthead VHF aerial, and co-ax - check
Masthead wind instruments and cabin top displays, all new - check
New standing rigging - check

Head area & wet locker stripped back to hull - check
New epoxy & fibreglass in head area - check
New 316 stainless thru-hulls, ball valves and hose tails - check
New cabinets / vanity etc - almost completed
New teak & ash flooring - check

New 20'x20' forward hatches (Maxwell offshore) x 2 - check
New 20' x 20' hatch in saloon - check

2 x new Rule 2000gph bilge pumps plumbed in to new 316 thru-hulls - check

Sleep - whats that again?
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Old 07-10-2008, 15:12   #127

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"New 316 stainless thru-hulls, ball valves and hose tails - check"
STAINLESS? Stainless is generally unsuitable for use below the water line. Any time you shut one of those valves, you will now have stagnant (unaerated) water sitting still in it, and that's a primary source of stainless failure.

I've never heard stainless recommended for that use--only the bronze/marelon debate.
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Old 07-10-2008, 16:32   #128
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Well, I asked and was recommended to use ansi 316 stainless, so I did. As it turned out, stainless was the only way I could get all the same material for thru-hull, elbow, valve and hose tail (I'm sure I could have got all bras or all bronze, but not at short notice at the time when I needed). As for stainless failure... what mode of failure are you suggesting? I may be wrong, but I think that in Australia youhave to use 316 stainless for thru-hulls if you want to get commercial survey

Oh, and I forgot to say...

New 12v toilet - check (and Lisa is v happy)
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Old 07-10-2008, 16:49   #129

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Stainless is susceptible to what they call "crevice corrosion" on the molecular scale. If it is kept in a wet anoxic environment (i.e. stagnant water, no oxygenation, no water flow) then it forms crevices on the microscopic level, which eventually lead to catastrophic failure. Typically this happens to stainless rudder posts after water gets into a rudder--where there is no "flow" and it stays stagnant inside.

Twenty years ago this was unheard of, ten years ago it was still news, now it is usually considered normal--and one reason Beneteau has gone to carbon fiber rudder posts, trying to eliminate the "wrong" material from rudders.

Dunno about Australian regs. Here in the US, we have any commerical regs (including housing construction codes) that require materials and procedures that were obsoleted years ago, or ban the newer and better ones because no one wanted to invest in changing the regs as better ways to doing things were found.

Heck, even riggers today will tell you to change all the stainless fittings, tangs, etc, on the standing rigging after 20 years, because after that long in salt air--sometimes they just go BOOM and fail as the crevice propagates.

In the 40's and 50's they thought stainless steel was great for kitchen knives. 25 years later....Carbon steel was back.<G>


"New 12v toilet" ROFL. ROFLMAO. Not at the potty, but thinking about power tools. In the US over the last ten years or so, there's been a lot of marketing hype for cordless drills and the like. 4.6 volts, 6 volts, 9.6 volts, TWELVE VOLTS! and they've finally crept up to EIGHTEEN VOLTS! Each time claiming more volts makes a better stronger tool or tool set. (Often junk from China, but hey, it has more volts.)

So, I got a mental flash of a similar "toilet war" and wondered, gee, couldn't that pot flush better if it ran on MORE VOLTS?! [vbg]

Sometimes I wonder, how the world got by with cedar buckets--and never needing to call a plumber in the middle of the night. This is progress now, huh? [g]
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Old 07-10-2008, 16:54   #130
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Interesting. Thaks for the info. I'm not gonna replace all that new stainless, on the premise that (a) I can't really afford to, plus (b) there is no significant load worth mentioning (unlike rudder posts & standing rigging). As I said before, I ened up with stainless because it avoded potential problems with dissimilar metals...
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Old 07-10-2008, 19:07   #131
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Weyalan, as a friend, you really should consider changing the SS through hulls out to bronze or marelon when you are able.

Fair winds,

Joli
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Old 07-10-2008, 20:57   #132
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So, I got a mental flash of a similar "toilet war" and wondered, gee, couldn't that pot flush better if it ran on MORE VOLTS?! [vbg]

US$300+ 240v Japanese fadec toilet with optional extra long prostate massager - check



Weyalan - Photos man! Photos!
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Old 07-10-2008, 21:06   #133
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Weyalan,

First a big congratulations in getting all that work done. You must feel elated.

As to the SS, I have a somewhat different opinion and I would suggest that you shouldn't worry unless you have local expert advice to the contrary. There are many posts of CF suggesting correct grades of SS is quite acceptable below the waterline. I think you will find Midland One would have strong (and perhaps even a qualified ) view on this subject.

The major problem with SS is a lack of O2 and the presence of water. Of course there is water below the water line but there is usually enough O2 to maintain the surface protection on the SS even if the flow of water limited. I think you will have enough water moving through the fittings for all to be OK.

Yes, silicon bronze may be better but if you couldn't get it then use the next best.

As an real time example of SS, bronze and water consider what I found during my refit.

Plywood boat about 27 years old (always in the water), bronze stern tube with bronze end fittings in timber log with some form of SS prop shaft and bronze prop with no zincs. Rudder post and rudder tube both SS.

Stern tube perfectly OK, prop shaft and prop. perfectly OK. Bronze fittings on end of stern tube both corroded (carroty) where they bolted against the timber log.

Rudder post perfectly OK. Inside of rudder tube perfectly OK. Outside of rudder tube perfectly OK EXCEPT where it penetrated the hull. Here it was almost eaten right through with crevice corrosion.

This experience confirms my view that where there was no water flow and the presence of water (where the exterior rudder tube penetrated the hull), there was significant corrosion; however where there was minimal water flow (inside the rudder tube and on the rudder post) all was OK.

BTW, I had all these fitting checked by the local aviation NDT guys - they gave the bits a through checking out with all tests they could throw at them. Eddy current, magaflux, dye penetrant, x-ray etc.

When I had new end fittings made up for the existing bronze stern tube, the local marine engineers used some sort of SS (but not 316) and assured me they hadn't used bronze for stern tube and such like fittings for many years now. They maintain a pretty reasonable sized fishing fleet so maybe they know what they are doing.

Nothing you can put on a boat is perfect, all things are a compromise
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Old 07-10-2008, 21:41   #134
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Yeah, sorry about the lack of photos... have been spending too much time doing the work and not enough admiring. I will try to get some photos over the coming weeks. Just got to route the edges of the bench tops and lay the carbon fibre... I'll get back to you.

Re the toilet wars; I would have been quite as happy (if not happier) to go with a manual toilet, but Lisa wanted an electric one, and she is the most wonderful thing in my life, so it didn't even occur to me to try to convince her otherwise. In the scheme of things, keeping you sailing mate happy is probably the most important thing.

Thanks for all the advice re. stainless steel. Keep it coming.
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Old 07-10-2008, 21:42   #135
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Well, I asked and was recommended to use ansi 316 stainless, so I did. As it turned out, stainless was the only way I could get all the same material for thru-hull, elbow, valve and hose tail (I'm sure I could have got all bras or all bronze, but not at short notice at the time when I needed). As for stainless failure... what mode of failure are you suggesting? I may be wrong, but I think that in Australia youhave to use 316 stainless for thru-hulls if you want to get commercial survey
SS is fine Weyalan, some of the advice you are getting here is very poor and just repeats the myths promulgated on amateur forums made from uninformed positions. SS is widely used on high quality vessels and on well fitted commercial vessels for seacocks etc (cos they can afford it, wish I could ). It is an especially convenient material for aluminium vessels.
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