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Old 22-11-2011, 13:35   #256
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Re: Making Ex-Racer My Cruiser . . . Am I Mad ?

G'day Patrick,

Neat picture!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 24-11-2011, 06:03   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weyalan
sure, it's only beercan racing,
As an Aussie how can you say "only"?

Beer can is more important than any so called "serious" competition
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Old 24-11-2011, 06:12   #258
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Re: Making Ex-Racer My Cruiser . . . Am I Mad ?

Is this the "AGARI" design? They have also designed e 40' open formula, but much later than the Agari, which was designed somewhere mid '80s. And on the foto the boat looks just like the Agari - extremely fast.
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Old 24-11-2011, 10:36   #259
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Re: Making Ex-Racer My Cruiser . . . Am I Mad ?

I agree with all of you,where there is passion,and a dream, you can sail and cruise just about anything, at the time if the IOR dynasty, manufacturers did not have much to choose from,and felt compeled to attach a racing pedigree to their product, most did produce a wonderfull boat, after modifications, what i am refering mostly of all, is the rule, dictating smart and tallented designers to create a pinchy, beamy boat, with extreme overhangs, spindly rigs with runners, check stays, long sp.poles, acres of deck and not one place to lean your back, bloopers, and of course chinise jibes.Yes you can modify and rebuilt to your hearts content, at the end of the day you wil still have a marginal foundation. And of course when you reach the point of no return you happily justify your efforts. For the most part usually the crew will fail before the boat. Hope to see you out there soon.
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Old 24-11-2011, 11:25   #260
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Re: Making Ex-Racer My Cruiser . . . Am I Mad ?

Is a modern racer much less complicated? I don' t think so. With their beamy sterns they sail may be faster on the reach but are definitely slower pointing high. The new generation racers are even beamier than the IOR and with their little freeboard they are not the best platform to transfer to cruiser. The older IOR is much more attractive for that sort of conversion.
Sailing the Northsea I have to battle against odd winds. I prefer the IOR above any other racy design of modern day. Second to that, in the shallow water the extreme deep keels are next to useless.
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Old 24-11-2011, 13:17   #261
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Re: Making Ex-Racer My Cruiser . . . Am I Mad ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevlarmike View Post
I agree with all of you,where there is passion,and a dream, you can sail and cruise just about anything, at the time if the IOR dynasty, manufacturers did not have much to choose from,and felt compeled to attach a racing pedigree to their product, most did produce a wonderfull boat, after modifications, what i am refering mostly of all, is the rule, dictating smart and tallented designers to create a pinchy, beamy boat, with extreme overhangs, spindly rigs with runners, check stays, long sp.poles, acres of deck and not one place to lean your back, bloopers, and of course chinise jibes.Yes you can modify and rebuilt to your hearts content, at the end of the day you wil still have a marginal foundation. And of course when you reach the point of no return you happily justify your efforts. For the most part usually the crew will fail before the boat. Hope to see you out there soon.
The IOR rule did, indeed, have its faults. I don't think that anyone would deny that. Nevertheless, so did IMS, and so does IRC. Any attempt to produce a rule where the incredible diversity of sizes & shapes of things that float, with sails, can compete against each other on a level playing field, is going to have faults. Nevertheless, IOR did produce some of the most competitive racing that one will ever see... the Admirals Cup, Kenwood Cup, Southern Cross Cup and the like were at the pinnacle of the sport and even private / amateur campaigns could win without needing squillion dollar budgets and all fully paid professional crews.

The above notwithstanding, most of the main faults of the typical IOR yacht are really mostly manifested in a racing scenario, more than when crusing. Sure these boats could be a real handful (and then some), when raced hard, particularly when running downwing, especially in a seaway... no doubt about that. But when cruising, who is going to put up every scrap of sail that they can in search of that elusive extra 1/4 of a knot os speed?

We have raced Insatiable as well as cruised her. In flat water, in 30+ knots of breeze, with a single reef and a 1.5oz kite, running deep downwind, she will do about 11.5 knots, flat out... a that speed, without decent sized surfing waves, she just won't go any faster, just dig a deeper hole. And let me tell you, its a scary ride. Seriously scary. But, in the same conditions, with 2 reefs and a poled out number 3 jib, she will sit quite comfortably at 9.5, and is a perfectly comortable non-scary experience. Even sailing 2-up, with 3 reefs and a small amount of headsail rolled off the furler, we'd do about 8-8.5 in those conditions, drinking a cold beer as we went. My point is that cruising is a completely different kettle of fish from racing, and some of the significant problems associated with racing an IOR boat are significantly less of a problem when cruising.

For what it is worth, it seems to me that the IOR era was pretty much the last time when racing boats were still built to be able to take a serious pounding offshore. i.e. saving weight, while important, was not put ahead of structural strength in the design process. My stepson recently delivered a pretty much brand new production racing boat from Sydney to Melbourne. I won't specify the marque to avoid a separate argument, but I will say that they had, even in delivery mode, to seriously shorten sail below that which they would have chosen, in order to "look after" the boat and nurse it through offshore conditions sailing to windward... and that only in 30 knots of breeze. Insatiable by comparison, with 2 reefs and a #3, loves those conditions, goes like a belt-fed mortar, and points like a japanese tour-guide.

Anyway, as you say, sailing is all about passion and dreams. We are loving sailing Insatiable, and that is what really matters.
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Old 24-11-2011, 13:32   #262
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Re: Making Ex-Racer My Cruiser . . . Am I Mad ?

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Old 24-11-2011, 13:50   #263
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Re: Making Ex-Racer My Cruiser . . . Am I Mad ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacG View Post
Is this the "AGARI" design? They have also designed e 40' open formula, but much later than the Agari, which was designed somewhere mid '80s. And on the foto the boat looks just like the Agari - extremely fast.
My understanding is that the Agari design was Vandestadt design number 297, design date 1997. It was 11.99m o/a, 4m beam, 2m draft

Insatiable is Vandrstadt design number 346, a.k.a. Mac 1 design, originally a 1981 design, then modified slightly in 1984 for Mander Marine (which is our version), and again in 1985 (which became the Naudor 40 design). It is 12.2m (Insatiable is, I think 12.15m) o/a, 3.81m beam, 2.25m draft.

I don't know anything about the "e 40' open"... maybe Vandestadt design 313

N.B. Most of the above is gleaned from
Van de Stadt Design
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Old 24-11-2011, 13:58   #264
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Re: Making Ex-Racer My Cruiser . . . Am I Mad ?

G'Day again Kevlarmike,

Weyalan has said it very well indeed. His experience matches ours in our Insatiable, except his is a bit faster! When we first bought that boat we raced her for a while before starting the cruising mods. We found that with a big running kite and typical San Francisco summer winds she was a real handful to steer. Deathrolls and roundups filled our early days with terror. Fast forward a year and we were off for Mexico and the South Pacific, loaded to the Plimsoll with chow and spares, and equipped with an auxiliary rudder type wind vane. Still flew a kite, but not in big winds, and ya know what? No terror! Never had any control issues thereafter, and to our surprise, she hove to pretty well when required. Only downside to the design was that the low freeboard and flush deck made a wet ride... until we added a hard dodger a few years later in New Zealand. So, I reckon your worries about hull shapes are not universally applicable to all IOR boats.

Also, I suspect that you are really thinking about the latter days of IOR in general. Our Insatiable was designed in '73 and built in '74. Certainly our mast was no noodle and had no runners or checkstays, and our cockpit had reasonable gunnels to lean against.

It is perhaps true that the IOR era generated some bad designs... but can you name an era where no bad boats were designed and built? Dark ages? Perhaps not...

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 24-11-2011, 14:19   #265
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Re: Making Ex-Racer My Cruiser . . . Am I Mad ?

Hey, KMike,

I forgot to add that IMO, some of those dark age boats were kinda pretty as well...
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Old 24-11-2011, 14:40   #266
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Re: Making Ex-Racer My Cruiser . . . Am I Mad ?

Hi Jim, the main thing is you are out there living your dream: many would love to have your boat, perhaps some day i will come forth, stand on slippery slope and declare as to what would be a least comprising sail boat.
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Old 24-11-2011, 14:41   #267
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Re: Making Ex-Racer My Cruiser . . . Am I Mad ?

I also, as an IOR racer conversion, can say I'm well satisfied with the way the boat handles. I will say that it takes a knowledgable/experienced sailor to understand how they handle. They are quick to respond and turn on a dime so one has to be alert. Not for the lazy sailor.

My only complaint is the lesser of space in reference to it's length but with the performance it makes up for the difference. And for just two people it's works out fine. A couple guests occasional doesn't seem to cramp the space much.

When the boat was stock I didn't like the way it drug the rudder going to wind but after changing the sail plan a bit it sails itself. I spend very little time at the helm. And now that all the lines run to the cockpit I spend a lot of time out on my own single handing.


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Old 24-11-2011, 15:06   #268
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Re: Making Ex-Racer My Cruiser . . . Am I Mad ?

Well said Weylan, good on you to take on a project such as this, as we all know and from every point of view, boats are a compromise, the main thing is you are out there, and from now until ever you will never say; being there done that,..... just becaue you watched on TV,
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Old 24-11-2011, 15:21   #269
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Re: Making Ex-Racer My Cruiser . . . Am I Mad ?

There's a good number of us early IOR owners out there, and Trying to explain our desicion to own one is tiring at times..
and as said, it takes a little to learn to sail one, but once you know the quirks of the boat, she'll hold her own with almost any boat on the water..
The choice to own a Throubread Ocean Racer As A Cruiser is not hard as it was designed to withstand the punishment of a full crew under full sail in race conditions upon the open Ocean.. When you back them down to a couple cruising, its relitive to a race horse being harnessed to a buggy to calmy walk the country roads..
The advantage to the boat for cruising, She's still a Throubread, and when the conditions arrive that you want to get somewhere Really Fast..
Just unhook the buggy......................
Points like a Hound-dog and sails like she was on tracks....
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Old 24-11-2011, 15:21   #270
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Re: Making Ex-Racer My Cruiser . . . Am I Mad ?

I keep thinking of just one more thing to say!

Another downside for our Insatiable's hull shape: the big tumblehome in the topsides that was favored by the IOR of the time looked kinda sexy in a zoftig manner, but makes lying against a wall or a fender board really difficult. The fenders just keep popping out, and this led to some dings in the gel coat.

Aahhhh, the cruising life...

Cheers,

Jim
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