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Old 04-04-2010, 02:20   #31
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I would say that the increase in core moisture is a result of poor maintenance - those fittings will need to be re-bedded, asap, to prevent the situation from deteriorating. It also begs the question of the age of the standing rigging/chain plates - anything approaching 10 years is not good news for your wallet, and would be good reason to lower your offer by a significant amount. Good luck, BWS.
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Old 04-04-2010, 02:51   #32
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I think that any old boat will have higher than expected moisture readings on the deck.
Also moisture meter readings need to be taken with suspesion.
Soundings with a hammer will tell more to a good surveyor.
I would get the surveyor to come out on the sea trial. Pay him for that. Also ask him his opinion of the items he highlighted.
Alex, also, it is my opinion, if you cant rebed fittings, and not willing to try, you are in for a expensive ride boating. Stuff like that is not that difficult to do. Get Don caseys book this old boat. Get it now on amazon. Before you spend 11 grand on a boat.
The picture look good, What are your intentions on this boat ? If its just a weekender for coastal sailing thats one thing. If you intend to take if off shore in the pacific that is another.
I would expect in this market to pay around 2/3 the price of what the boats value is, unless it was turnkey. So for a 11000 boat, say 7-8 grand. if he is under water with the loan, it may not matter, as my PO was. But still you should be getting a deal, not just even. But many surveyors value the boat based on selling price to justify it. So make sure it really is worth that amount. You do that by tracking the selling price of similar boats in the last year or so. Also, if your first offer was accepted you offered to much.
You can renegotiate the price once the sea trial is compete but MAKE SURE the dates on the contract are correct and you do not go over them. Or you will forfit your down payment.
Bob
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Old 04-04-2010, 05:31   #33
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Hello, I am a new boat owener as well. I got a good deal on a boat that needed some TLC. I am in the same position as you. There were some leaks that needed to be fixed. I have never owned a big boat and started sailing classes last year. I bought the book that Bob is talking about and have striped the whole deck of my boat, sealed all holes with epoxy, pained and am in the process of rebedding now. It really is not that hard. It takes some time. But any time on the boat is enjoyable to me. Even if it is on the hard.

I would suggest if you go ahead with the purchase, don't be afraid to give it a shot. You will really get to "know your boat" from a structural point of view.

Good luck.
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Old 04-04-2010, 07:11   #34
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Well, have the survey in hand, and there are a few troubling things. The main one is, "Higher than expected moisture readings in core material at chain plates, stanchion bases, at cockpit coamings, around bow cleat, car track, anchor bracket, anchor chain plate stand and two area where previous deck hardware had been removed".

The surveyor didn't list this as an immediate attention item, but it sounds bad to me. How do we find out the extent of the core damage if any? Is this a deal breaker? I'm sure it would be very costly to hire someone to repair and rebed all these fittings. It sounds like a very daunting task for me to attempt. How much should this effect our offer? The asking price was $11,500. We offered $9,500 which was accepted. The survey says there are ten items that need immediate attention. All of which we feel comfortable doing ourselves at a cost of about $1900. With these items and the deck moisture issues addressed the surveyor estimates the boats value at $11,000.
The first thing to do is to revoke the P&S before the acceptance date passes, so that you can get your security deposit back. Then, if you still want the boat, you obviously have to renegotiate the price based on the cost of the necessary repairs, including rebedding of chain plates, cleats, etc.
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Old 04-04-2010, 09:51   #35
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I would just take one of those fittings off and check the core. Much better to look at it directly than speculate looking at meters.

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Old 04-04-2010, 10:32   #36
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I would just take one of those fittings off and check the core. Much better to look at it directly than speculate looking at meters.

cheers,
Nick.
I think you're right on, take the bow cleat off and see just how wet the area is.
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Old 04-04-2010, 10:43   #37
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There are probably alot of the folks here that might disagree with me but go out on her and sit below and in the cockpit and see what the yacht says to you and your wife. even if you are not a sailor if she feels right to you both she will be right. Buying a yacht is like starting a love relationship you have to be in tune with eachother.
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:01   #38
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The first thing to do is to revoke the P&S before the acceptance date passes, so that you can get your security deposit back. Then, if you still want the boat, you obviously have to renegotiate the price based on the cost of the necessary repairs, including rebedding of chain plates, cleats, etc.
Unfortunately, I have to say that I think this is the best advice in this thread. This is not a good deal for you, because:

1. As has been pointed out, you would be paying too much for the boat in this market.

2. As someone who knows very little about boats and sailing there is a very good chance that you will find yourself being dissatisfied with the boat within a year or two. At that time, should you decide to sell it, you will probably take a loss which will make it all the more difficult for you to acquire the "right" boat.

3. You would be better off learning to sail on someone else's boat. In Portland, there are numerous ways to do this. My son lives there and I can ask him for some recommendations.

I think you would be much better off scrapping this deal and going in a different direction.

And don't feel sorry for the seller either. You should have been given a copy of the survey before you even thought about making an offer.
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:15   #39
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speedo, a seller is under no obligation to show you a previous survey. None. It is up the the prospective buyer to get a survey.

Sitting in a cockpit and making a decision based on "feelings" is one of the worst ways to by anything, including a expensive purchase like a boat.

Again, you need to understand why you are getting it, what you want to do with it, and how much risk you can assume. Fixing a wet deck on a boat is expensive and time consuming. But going with just numbers from a moisture meter is not accurate either.
Taking off hardware on a boat you don't own is no ok either. Many owners and brokers will not let you do that.
My recommendation is to first safeguard you deposit. Look at the contract NOW. Make sure the dates are ok. If you go over them you will lost it.
Then get the surveyor back. Pay him to go over the spots he found on the last survey. Be there with him when he does this. Have him sound with a hammer, not just a moisture meter. Try and get the seller to ok removing a piece of deck gear that is troublesome, but don't be surprised if he says no.
In the end, all older boats will have issues. Weather is is a deal breaking issue or not depends on your level of comfort, you budget and your skill, or lack of. But most of this is not hard. You can pay someone 80 or 100 bucks per hour to do it for you, or you can do it yourself for the cost of the materials.
But if the deck is wet throughout, then walk from the boat.
If its just a little wet around some deck hardware, and you have time to let it sit, it is fixable.
You can keep looking, but the next boat will have issues as well. Maybe yo will find them on survey. and maybe you won't. But they will be there.
And you will spend more money and time looking.
So as I said, evaluate what you are doing this for, and is this the right kind of boat for that. Then go for a good deal. Do not pay high price, or even even price for a boat with problems in this market. There are a lot of boats out there right now. It is up to you to negotiate a good price that you can be ok with.

Bob
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:16   #40
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I think you should worry less about the boat's feel under sail. After all, you will be learning. This is a solid production boat and will sail just fine to weather. In the beginning you'll be the weak link, not the boat
Exactly and with that said: buy a dinghy, buy a dinghy, buy a dinghy. This is a nice looking boat, stuff looks clean, you could see yourself at the wheel, the wife bringing you a drink....blah blah blah. But ultimately you will not learn half the amount on this boat that you can learn from a dinghy. Buy a small boat for a thousand dollars or so, consider it money towards this boat, or whatever bigger boat you decide to get in a year, because without you knowing how to sail this boat isn't worth what you are paying for it. Is anyone with me here? PS I mean no offense by this and I am not trying to discourage you from this, if anything consider it encouragement, but you've got to start in the right place.
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:19   #41
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I've sailed that boat on a long delivery - they tend not to point as well as I'd like and I didn't really like its performance in stronger winds (over 20k), but my own boat is ocean rated and larger, heavier, so part of these thoughts is bias. It's certainly a better boat than the 24 footer I learned to sail on. If the price is right, and the survey doesn't show anything too horrible, and you can afford it, you'll likely have a lot of fun.
Welcome to the club....
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:24   #42
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I agree: 1st time owners and new sailors should not start with a troubled boat. As your experience grows or you learn how to fix things yourself, you get a much better feeling for a boat, but not at the start.

Many experienced sailors, me included, buy a boat for life. We look at the survey report but we let our hearts decide. Even if we need to rebuild it from the keel up, we keep sticking to that boat because we are confident we can do the work and she took good care of us during all those nasty passages. This is even true of parts like an anchor that we bond to if it has been good to us.

If a boat must be bought period, I would advise to buy a J24 and sail it like crazy for a couple of years. It puts you into the scene and things will need repair for sure. A perfect basis for buying the cruising boat.

cheers,
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Old 04-04-2010, 17:08   #43
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If a boat must be bought period, I would advise to buy a J24 and sail it like crazy for a couple of years. It puts you into the scene and things will need repair for sure. A perfect basis for buying the cruising boat.

cheers,
Nick.
A J24 might be a nice middle ground between what I am suggesting (buy a dinghy) and what you are trying to do (buy a cruising boat) they are enough of a performance boat that you will really get the feel for sail trim and learn how to actually sail well, but they are comfortable enough to take your family out in. In my opinion there is a huge difference in expenses, responsibility etc between a 28 ft boat and a 24 ft boat. A 24 ft boat is the absolute upper end of what I would want to buy as a newbie. There is less inertia behind you when you bash into things. which you invariably will do....seriously.

On that note I always think the ultimate beginner boat is the O'day Day Sailor. Trailerable, affordable, sensitive enough to teach you something, tough enough not to flip over on a whim, light enough to manhandle blah blah blah.
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Old 04-04-2010, 17:28   #44
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As you've noticed, you are getting a lot of opinions, all of them conflicting. This is sailing - everyone has an opinion and unless their money is involved in that opinion, it's often not worth listening to. That being said, here's my two cents worth....
What's this boat worth, in this market? What will it cost dollarwise to put it into top condition? Subtract that from the asking (or your offering) price. If the seller will take that, and you're willing to do the work and spend the $$, then it's a deal because you have a boat worth what you've paid for it.
That is, provided it passes the 'sit in the boat and does it speak to me' test. I've sat on boats that were great deals but they didn't 'speak' to me - and if you can't love the boat, it isn't worth the money (to you, maybe not the next guy) to fix it.
Good luck to you.....
(this from a guy who's bought every boat he's looked seriously at - and shouldn't have.....finally got lucky and found a good one!)
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Old 04-04-2010, 17:42   #45
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As you've noticed, you are getting a lot of opinions, all of them conflicting. This is sailing - everyone has an opinion and unless their money is involved in that opinion, it's often not worth listening to.
I second that opinion
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