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Old 30-09-2006, 09:25   #1
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Lots of Questions

Hello Everyone,

I'm new to sailing, I'm working my way up to bareboat certification. I'll be chartering for a few years, but plan to buy a cruising boat eventually.

I am starting my research now but there is daunting amount of info and boats out there. My first contraint is obviously budget, I surely would need a boat for less than 100k and that would be stretching it. 50-60k would be more realistic. I would like a boat between 32 and 40 feet. The order of my boat attributes would be seaworthiness first, then comfort and lastly performance. Other than that I'm open to any thing else. I can repair the interior as long as it's seaworthy.

Any info or links are greatly appreciated, but I have some pretty basic and probably stupid questions:

-Who pays the broker commision on a boat sale, buyer/seller?

-What is the length of financing options for a used boat, ie how many years can I stretch put the payments for?

-What brands are luxury and what brands just give you a seaworthy boat without the unnecessary luxuries? (e.g. a toyota is a good car, but a lexus is a nicer toyota)

Thanks for any answers, I know these aren't the most interesting or intelligent questions.
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Old 30-09-2006, 09:57   #2
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NYSAIL
The seller pays the commission, but the buyer may or may not have to pay for the haul-out and survey (try to negotiate this with the broker or owner).
As for the "which boat" question...very subjective, and you will get 12 answers for every 10 sailors you ask, but given your parameters, I'm partial to a Tayana 37 for your needs/ wants.
Good luck,
John
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Old 30-09-2006, 11:30   #3
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Thanks Meridian!
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Old 30-09-2006, 11:32   #4
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NYSail - welcome to the forum ... can we presume that you are from New York? You may want to add some information to your profile so that those that respond can better answer. You can add information to your profile by clicking on the word PROFILE at the top right of this page (in the banner menu below the globe).

There are a huge number of boats (as you pointed out) that would meet the very small number of requirements that you listed. Can I suggest, that you visit some marinas, some boat selling web sites, and a boat show or two, to help you refine your requirements / needs? A huge number of the boat selling web sites how have many pictures for each boat, along with some vital statistics.

You may also want to take a quick look at my web site - specifically the IN THE BEGINNING section where I discuss how I went about finding my boat.

Good luck!
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Old 30-09-2006, 11:35   #5
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NYSAIL-or

Welcome aboard!


It sounds like you'll be wanting a full keeled vessel. The Tayana 37 is a good choice as Meridian stated. The $ range is not too unreal. But for insurance purposes, anything over 10 years can be troublesome. You'll have to keep an eye out for a good hull that needs interior work at the right price. And you'll need insurace to finance. Talk to the insurance at BoatsUS to get a basic idea of requirments. The more cert's you have the better the rate as well.

As for payments, I wouldn't count on more then a 10 year loan for an older boat. New boats usually average 15 year.

Welcome to a new way of life. You may end up changing your mind on the boat requirement so get out there sail for awhile. Myself I prefer performance over comfort. But seaworthy, first for off shore, second for inland waters.

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Old 30-09-2006, 19:32   #6
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Quote:
I surely would need a boat for less than 100k and that would be stretching it. 50-60k would be more realistic.
You probably should be looking at higher displacemnt boats to get the range you may require. You'll want tankage and ability to carry lots of stuff. That is the one requirement of length - it has to hold all your crap. Length also get you more water line and that means comfort and performance. A long water line adds a lot but at a proportiaonaly higher cost both intially and long term. Bigger boats take more money and effort to keep up. Nothing its well made enough to let you escape that problem. The best boats still take effort.

If you go to Yachtworld.Com you can plug in length and price for used boats and see how they come up on the listings. Read the details of a lot of boats and you will start to see patterns. A boat cheaper than another of the same variety may have a reason. As you increase the price you'll find more options in larger boats. A 37 ft boat for 50K is not realistic without a lot of hard work and some additional money to get it ready to go. Big project boats consume multiple years of effort and a lot of money.

Any old boat can be refitted and made whole again with time and money, but not always at a cost that an alternative boat could be had for less money or time. Some old boats were not much when they were new. so you cqan't always make it into something it never was.

Price, performance, and comfort are all variables that you can only solve for yourself. Don't pay more than you can afford, and try for all the performance you can get and all the comfort that you need. Everyone is different.
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Old 30-09-2006, 22:11   #7
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Welcome!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYSAIL
-What is the length of financing options for a used boat, ie how many years can I stretch put the payments for?
I've been directed to several brokers who can give me 30 year notes on used boats (some over 20 years or so I've been told.)

Like real estate it boils down to research and using the right broker, finance agent and insurance agent. You can hop on the bus with the big guys and get the standard fare or research and get a much better deal.

I'm personally about 3 years away from leaving myself and still looking at boats. About the best thing I can tell you at this time is that quality boats hold thier value and quality of construction over time. After watching and listening you start to hear specific brand names over and over that are associated with quality construction. After all unlike a house, you will be trusting this investment in keeping you alive and afloat in even the harshest conditions.
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Old 30-09-2006, 23:00   #8
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Cool Help Us Help You

NYSAIL, all you have said is that you imagine a boat between 32 and 40 feet, and want to "buy a cruising boat eventually."

On that scant information, you've received advice to:
  • get a boat with a full keel
  • look at Tayana 37s
  • look at higher-displacement boats for their longer range
  • make sure you have adequate tankage
You must consider this advice as reflecting the biases and/or assumptions of the posters. They can't possibly know what you have in mind for your future, as you haven't articulated it yet. You may not have a clear idea of what your intended use is either. People use the word crusing to mean different things, from a two-week shore hopping vacation to a 5-year circumnavigation. If you tell us how you're thinking about using the boat, you may get some useful feedback.

It does sound as if you are several years away from setting sail. Reading and learning all you can through online and printed sources will give you lots of information to consider to help you decide what your needs are, and chartering will give you hands-on experience to use to help you make comparisons, and to decide if the real thing is as attractive to you as the glossy magazine photos.

This board is the best and most welcoming that I know of, and is populated by very knowledgabe and experienced seamen from a wide range of backgrounds and specialization. Your local Barnes & Noble has a shelf full of very informative, useful volumes that will provide much grist for the mental mill (how about tossing him a couple of classic titles, guys?).

Paul's referral to Yachtworld.com is excellent, and can be an education all in itself. I spent more than two years there, logging on almost daily, while I saved the final money for my rather modest coastal cruiser. My reading and web-surfing helped me decide what I needed and didn't need in a yacht that will see me to my retirement some fifteen years down the coast. Because of my voracious reading, surfing, and bulletin board reading and question-posting, I believe I spent my money wisely.

How are you intending to use the yacht (how, where, how long)? That information will really get the ball rolling.

Regards,
Jeff
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Old 01-10-2006, 05:25   #9
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I will agree with the last post. Giving (and taking) advice on what boat to buy based on the paucity of detail that you have provided is a recipe for disappointment. You are at the stage where it is essential that you document all the requirements for a boat, and then list them in a priority list. Every boat is a compromise and the priority list helps to resolve the right boat for you.

For example numbers on board normally is a major requirement, numbers of occsional guests will be a much lower requirement.
Sailing performance will be offset against price and comfort in harbour, e.g. a cheaper older catamaran will be comfortable in harbour, provide space, but performance to windward will be much less than a racing monohull.
try to resolve your requirements into a more detail, and the type of boat required will start to be obvious, it is then a question of balancing the various compromises (including price) to get the boat that works for you.

This system can resolve a lot of heartache and reduce costs considerably. I used it to buy my first boat and now 19 years later I am on the verge of selling her as my requirements have changed
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Old 01-10-2006, 11:27   #10
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Thank goodness for CaptainJeff's post...

I read you post and said, Lets see here;
Guy in New York, (light air and lots of great coastal cruising locations)
Learning to sail, (Needs a responsive boat so that he can develop skills more easily)
Seaworthiness critical, (in that sailing venue a boat that can quickly deal with changes in weather and get him safely and quickly to the nearest port of refuge)
Does not want luxuries (does not need or want all of the 'stuff' that goes with a offshore focused cruiser).

In other words, the last F$#^ing boat that I would ever recommend for this guy would be a long keeled, heavy displacement, dedicated distance cruiser like the Tayana 37. There is nothing in his post that would even vaguely suggest a Tayana 37 would make one iota of sense for him.

If anything I would suggest that he look at a lightly used, 10 to 15 year old) good quality, moderately light displacement, coastal cruiser, with a fin keel and spade rudder (better cruising range, light to moderate wind sailing ability and ease of handling) and a simple sloop rig (ideally fractional rig if he plans to single-hand, which he does not say).

The size of the boat should be dictated by the number of people that NYSail routinely expects to sail with. The smaller the number of people, the smaller the boat should be, (figure the light end of a range between 5,500 to 11,000 per person, figure half that per child) and if single-handing is a priority, then the closer to the 32 foot range (and a displacement well under 11,000 lbs) the better.

We don't know NYSail's age and physical condition which will also come into play. And NYSail has not had enough experience to understand for himself what his sailing tastes really are.

Anyway To answer the other questions:

-Who pays the broker commision on a boat sale, buyer/seller?
As has been noted, the seller pays the commission, but some 'Buyer Brokers' charge a separate fee for their services. Unless they rebate a part of their commission, I would avoid any Buyer Broker looking for you to pay a fee.


-What is the length of financing options for a used boat, ie how many years can I stretch put the payments for?
The length of the loan will depend on the age of the boat and the amount being borrowed. 10-15 years is not all that uncommon in the size and price boat that you are considering.

-What brands are luxury and what brands just give you a seaworthy boat without the unnecessary luxuries
See the comments above.

Ask two sailors a question and the answers are bound to be infinite.

Good luck,
Jeff
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Old 01-10-2006, 16:13   #11
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Whoever mentioned yachtworld.com is on the right track. It is, in my opinion, very important to not hurry when approaching buying a boat. yachtworld.com allows you to search there (thousands of) boats by size, type, price etc. I would set up a search using your desired price range and desired length range and see what is for sale in that bracket. Check the same search a couple of times ber pweek for a year or two and you will start to get a good idea of what is available / reasonable within your budget.

In the meantime, do as much sailing as you can... whether it be certificate courses, cruising on friends boats or racing at your local marina/club's twilight races... time spent on the water is good! Try to get on as many boats as you can (hint: most yacht owners are proud of their boats - if you walk around a marina and engage them, politely, in a conversation, you will usually be able to wangle an invite to come on board for an inspect).

If you spend a couple of years sailing as much as you can, plus a couple of years scouring yachtworld.com regularly, you will probably end up with a pretty good idea of what is going to be practical for you and also what type of boat "speaks to you".
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Old 01-10-2006, 22:01   #12
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[quote=Jeff H]Thank goodness for CaptainJeff's post...

In other words, the last F$#^ing boat that I would ever recommend for this guy would be a long keeled, heavy displacement, dedicated distance cruiser like the Tayana 37. There is nothing in his post that would even vaguely suggest a Tayana 37 would make one iota of sense for him.


Gosh, Jeff...Who pee'd in your Wheaties?!
Anyway, the "vague iotas" that I replied to were:
1) must be under $100K
2) 32-40 ft loa
3) Priorities (in order): Seaworthiness, comfort, performance. A CRUISING boat.
4) Will be CHARTERING for a few years, and will be looking to purchase AFTER this period (when he has more experience).

So, as I run for cover, I ask...what, in his specific requests, rules out a vessel such as a Tayana 37, or anything similar?
Oh, and I particularly enjoy your statement " And NYSAIL has not had enough experience to understand for himself what his sailing tastes really are". How he even gets up in the morning by himself remains a mystery...

John
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Old 02-10-2006, 06:44   #13
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Seaworth does not just mean full keel heavy discplacement. NY Sail I would suggest that you look at lots of boats at the boat shows and get a feel for what is really important to you. There are lots of boats that are seakindly that offer the stability of full keel boats and more performance. Bristols, some Tartans, Sabre, Wauzuez 35/38, are just some examples. If you want more cruising oriented then HRs, old Moodys are also affordable.

Speed is also a safety factor which lots tend to ignore. For example we left Newport RI 2-3 hours behind another boat 42 ft faster cruiser yet arrived in Cape May 50 miles ahead of them. Speed does matter when trying to beat weather.
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