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Old 11-07-2017, 00:37   #16
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Re: Looking for a conservative boat in Europe

At the beginneing I stated I wanted to start the boat search this autumn. In fact, I have induced myself and have seen a couple of boats already , in Sweden, Germany and in the Netherlands. So I do not limit my search to Germany. But still I try to optmize my costs by combining the travels with business trips...

To be continued at the end of the month...
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Old 11-07-2017, 14:25   #17
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Re: Looking for a conservative boat in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Browning View Post
.....

The boat has to provide a high notion of security and take anything that Mother Ocean throws at it. I do not believe in the modern notion that one can outrun bad weather. Speed is no issue for us.

....
Therefore, I have arrived at an idea of a heavy displacement, traditional long keeler of 35 feet. Sloop or cutter rigged, aft cockpit, preferably tiller. What is not there, cannot break.

It must be available in Europe, preferably in Germany.
Long keeler as nothing to do with safety (unless you intend to get grounded a lot) but only with obsolete design. No small boat can pretend to be safe with all conditions mother nature can create on an Ocean.

The speed of the boat s not so much to do with escaping bad weather but with sailing. Modern designed boats are better sailboats, meaning they sail better, point better and most of all sail with much less wind...so unless you want to motor a lot you should consider a modern design.

Among modern designs with a conservative side between 35 and 38ft you should consider (if money is not a problem) the new Halberg Rassy 340 (and also the 372), the Nordship 360, the Sirius 35DS, the Swedestar 370 or the Sunbeam 36.2 (among many others). Those are very different but seaworthy boats. You should find among them one that you like.
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Old 15-07-2017, 13:54   #18
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Re: Looking for a conservative boat in Europe

I have exactly what you want I'm also a software engineer - bot is Sun Liberty 34 - with enormousness amount of extras and electronics added -south of France
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Old 16-07-2017, 09:09   #19
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Re: Looking for a conservative boat in Europe

A Vancouver 34 or 36 would suit you fine.
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Old 07-01-2019, 12:48   #20
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Re: Looking for a conservative boat in Europe

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Finally outing myself.

We, my wife and myself want to start our boat search soon (possibly this autumn) and would like to hear the suggestions of the community as to a suitable type.

The purpose of the boat would be to perform ever increasing sailing as our duties on the land will diminish. We will start on the Baltic Sea, but eventually I want only our abilities and not the boat’s to be the limitation (I know this is unrealistic, but you get the idea I hope). I do not want to change the boat, as I am very bad at trading.

The boat has to provide a high notion of security and take anything that Mother Ocean throws at it. I do not believe in the modern notion that one can outrun bad weather. Speed is no issue for us.

The boat has to provide a space for just two of us (being rather small people), my home office (Software Engineer with just a big laptop), and my wife’s cello. The latter can be then exchanged for one of our sons in an improbable event they want to join our adventures. We will not start with a permanent life aboard, but I would not exclude it in the future.

Therefore, I have arrived at an idea of a heavy displacement, traditional long keeler of 35 feet. Sloop or cutter rigged, aft cockpit, preferably tiller. What is not there, cannot break.

It must be available in Europe, preferably in Germany.
You might want a Vindo 50. It is actually 35 feet or 11 meters long. The 50 refers to the sail area. A very high quality and heavily built yacht from Orust, Sweden. There are a few quality builders from that small island. Must be something in the water.

The Vindo 50 is a very pretty and capable yacht. The Vindo 65 is a sweet yacht too. But they are 38 feet. Devalk.nl has a couple.

They are often found in Germany.
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Old 08-01-2019, 07:11   #21
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Re: Looking for a conservative boat in Europe

> 'cello

beware marine environment. During years at sea both my two
mandolins have suffered glue failure, back joint to sides.

so I have cut back on instrument quality, regarding it as
despensible.
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Old 08-01-2019, 08:22   #22
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Re: Looking for a conservative boat in Europe

"Originally Posted by Browning View Post
.....

The boat has to provide a high notion of security and take anything that Mother Ocean throws at it. I do not believe in the modern notion that one can outrun bad weather. Speed is no issue for us.

....
Therefore, I have arrived at an idea of a heavy displacement, traditional long keeler of 35 feet. Sloop or cutter rigged, aft cockpit, preferably tiller. What is not there, cannot break.

It must be available in Europe, preferably in Germany."

Your criteria is not incorrect for you. Others are going to try and convince you that you wrong. First lesson as Captain is this. Your decision stands. It is yours to make. Remember that Captain Picard's First Officer Will Ryker disagreed with his Caption many times. But only in the privacy of his ready room!!

You are absolutely right about finding a yacht that gives you a sense of security. That is your criteria based on your level of comfort. That is not for someone else to disagree with.

So your choice of a full keeler is a correct choice. The boat will sail with an easier motion, and and encapsulated keel will provide a better level of protection against grounding than a bolt-on cast iron keel will.

The issue is not one of safety but rather YOUR feeling of security.

Do not ever expect that you can outrun a storm. Hull speed what ever the type of sailing yacht you own is the speed limit. Storms tend to run a whole lot faster than 6-8 knots!

Also nobody expects to ground!!! But you should, it happens when you least expect it. How did John Cleese put it? "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition"!!

Full keelers track better once they are balanced so using Wind Vane self steering puts less load and wear on the mechanism. Many sailors back in the day before wind vane steering or auto-pilot would balance the rig and tie off the tiller or wheel and the boat would essentially sail itself until the wind shifted and often the boat would simply keep the point of sail while changing course with the wind. This is why ketch rigs were so popular back in the early days of yachting with small crews. This is something that only a full keeler can EASILY do.

Heaving to is a point of sail that a full keeler excels at! You can heave to or fore reach a fin keel yacht but the motion is quite a bit more active and so is the leeway. All the cruising authors agree with this from the Hiscocks to the Pardy's and especially Vito Dumas, his epic sail described in "Alone Through The Roaring Forties" is essential reading just as Larry and Lin Pardy's "Heavy Weather Sailing" is as well. As a cruising sailor you will heave to in weather, while being boarded by the MCA or Coast Guard and when you simply want a good night's sleep and a break from beating. A fin keel yacht does not heave to as well as a full keel yacht. Which is why most maritime maritime authorities will try to insist you drop sail instead of keep sail and heaving to or fore reaching. Buying a fin keel yacht simply because it maneuvers well under power in the marina is in my opinion a rather misplaced priority. Get a bow thruster if you feel the need to turn on a dime.

A full keel yacht often has the benefit of fully encapsulated iron or lead ballast except wooden yachts and I will not even go into that. A fin keel yacht often does not, the iron keel is bolted on. If you want to know what a supposedly "light" grounding with a bolt-on keel is capable of then read about the Beneteau 40.7 "Cheeki Rafiki" and it's loss in the mid-Atlantic and the death of 4 crewmen.

Bolt on fin keels fall off. That is an incontrovertible FACT.

"Since the 80's more than 75 keels have fallen off yachts with 28 lives lost." FACT Thats a good reason the stay away from bolt on fin keels. No full keel yacht has lost a keel!! However there is a persistant rumour that some early full keel yachts built in the far east lost some lead shot ballast due to not enough resin.

Full keels do not fall off. So YES, a full keel yacht is safer than a bolt on fin keel yacht. If you "feel the need for speed" and you want to race then take risks and get a fin keel yahct. If you want to enjoy sailing with your family then the choice is yours to make.

https://www.vgyd.com//wp-content/upl...Off-9-5-13.pdf

Interesting Sailboats: KEELS FALLING OFF

https://www.yachtingworld.com/news/e...her-keel-69146

https://www.yachtingworld.com/news/k...ng-facts-60006



In the US, Naval architects like Bill Crealock and Bob Perry began designing cruising yachts with a long encapsulated fin keels and a skeg rudder. Sometimes a full skeg and often a partial skeg. Early Najad, Aphrodite, Vindo, Hallberg-Rassy and S&S Swans did as well. I'm not sure about Baltics or Swedens. ANd I do have seen first hand what a grounding on rock under full sail can do to a keel on a 45 foot Juneau. The boat was almost a total loss. The cast iron keel was broken in have the keel bedding was ruptured and the yacht took on water around the keel boats. The was major structural damage to the yacht and it required a new keel shipped from France iI believe that took several months and thousands of dollars. That is what happens when you sail from waypoint to waypoint with out checking your route!

The rudder stock of a fully balanced spade rudder is a cantilever. The flexural loads from lateral forces at the hull and at lower bearing can be enormous in rough conditions at any point of sail but especially beating and running on the quarter. Even a small skeg can provide enough support to reduce these forces during extreme sea conditions to provide an additional measure of safety. That is your choice to make. Personally I would not feel comfortable with a spade rudder even with a carbon fiber rudder stock. But I also appreciate the authority of a deep balanced rudder especially when excessively heeled. But again will you be excessively heeled on a long passage? High heeling angles are an indication of overpowering your yacht. And again it is your personal choice and how comfortable you want to be.

This is essential for racing but not for cruising.

Just because something can be done does not mean it should be done. I think Edward Teller said this first. (Teller invented the Hydrogen Bomb) While I can appreciate what other people have done with whatever yacht they have sailed in; why they did it worked for THEM.

Find out what works for YOU. When other folks dismiss your reasoning then you might want to think twice about inviting them as crew.
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Old 08-01-2019, 21:06   #23
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Re: Looking for a conservative boat in Europe

I grew up thinking Swan sailboats were the coolest ever so something like this: https://scanboat.com/en/boat-market/...an-38-17317609

FWIW there are competent people holding the opinion that a modernly shaped boat would be a good choice as well.
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Old 11-01-2019, 05:35   #24
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Re: Looking for a conservative boat in Europe

Dear All,


our search has ended much quicker than we had thought. "Anna Karin" joined our household late 2017 and we had a very nice (but too short!) sailing saison 2018. Looking forward to see her in water again in May 2019.


She is a 35 yrs old Vindö 45.
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Old 11-01-2019, 14:35   #25
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Re: Looking for a conservative boat in Europe

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Dear All,


our search has ended much quicker than we had thought. "Anna Karin" joined our household late 2017 and we had a very nice (but too short!) sailing saison 2018. Looking forward to see her in water again in May 2019.


She is a 35 yrs old Vindö 45.
Congratulations!
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