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Old 11-05-2015, 04:05   #16
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Re: Looking at a ketch

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
What did this mean?

Two masts are shorter than one. Quite useful on the ICW.


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Old 11-05-2015, 04:21   #17
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Re: Looking at a ketch

Jimmy I have seen this yacht and is a good example of this type of yacht and a very seaworthy yacht and has by the looks been well maintained and would suit sailing around the east coast of Oz or for that matter I would sail her to Europe no worries I would offer 10k less than asking price and I bet they will sell
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Old 11-05-2015, 05:18   #18
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Re: Looking at a ketch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailmonkey View Post
Two masts are shorter than one. Quite useful on the ICW.


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'ICW' is what?

Was it a literal bridge your talking about?
Where are you all seeing this vessel. Can someone share the link so I can perve as well.
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Old 11-05-2015, 08:01   #19
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Re: Looking at a ketch

i hve sailed sloop cutter and ketch. in big winds a ketch is THE one to sail.
my ketch comes out the harbor when sloops are returning with tails between legs, and ketch can and does fly in wild winds when a sloop is bashing its transom off.....
i learned on sloops an dsailed them al my sailing life, until 1997 when i wa sassociated with a steel ketch and fell in lust... sailed gom in a sloop in 2009-2010, in weather-- watched as a ketch ran away from us in same weather we bashed our tails off in... nasty stuff my ketch takes just fine and happily with a well balanced feel as opposed to weather helm.....
took a 60 plus chubasco on beam in my ketch on my way south--was FUN!!!
sailed sloop in severe rated tboomers in gom and hated it.....
btw--if ye has to ask about what is an icw then ye dont have to worry about it--is a man made channel on usa east coast and gom.. very interesting adventuring there.. not good for sailing, but ye can motor ..and bridges are low and electric lines are 65 ft off the water.
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:23   #20
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Re: Looking at a ketch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
'ICW' is what?

Was it a literal bridge your talking about?
Where are you all seeing this vessel. Can someone share the link so I can perve as well.
Sometimes folks forget that we have a worldwide forum. Inter Coastal Waterway is on the east coast of the United States and has lots of bridges to go under.
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Old 11-05-2015, 23:10   #21
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Re: Looking at a ketch

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
why

I have a 36 foot ketch. But I don't know enough about the mizzen yet to have experienced the benefits. And my mizzen mast needs overhauling and two of my mizzen chain plates need replacing. So, to date I've not wanted to push the rig with too much work just yet.
it sounds like the mizzen sails even the pressure of the main sails , as the main mast is positioned closer to the bow than a sloop or cutter , even pressure on the hull ,. so as the rudder is making less drag in the water .
the boat will go faster , does that sound correct ?
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Old 11-05-2015, 23:16   #22
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Re: Looking at a ketch

Quote:
Originally Posted by beneteau-500 View Post
Jimmy I have seen this yacht and is a good example of this type of yacht and a very seaworthy yacht and has by the looks been well maintained and would suit sailing around the east coast of Oz or for that matter I would sail her to Europe no worries I would offer 10k less than asking price and I bet they will sell
thanks Beneteau-500 ill take that on boarded.
the owner is very proud of his boat

cheers

jimmy
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Old 12-05-2015, 12:16   #23
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Re: Looking at a ketch

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Originally Posted by HVYJimmy View Post
it sounds like the mizzen sails even the pressure of the main sails , as the main mast is positioned closer to the bow than a sloop or cutter , even pressure on the hull ,. so as the rudder is making less drag in the water .
the boat will go faster , does that sound correct ?
It's the balance of the rig. A designer takes the combination of center of effort of each sail that will be flown and places it a few inches aft of center of lateral resistance of the boat's underbody (mostly keel) in order to give it slight weather helm. On a ketch rig she'll sail just fine without using the mizzen but she won't be as balanced or as efficient on many points of sail.

So, if that's what you said then you are correct.
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Old 12-05-2015, 12:25   #24
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Re: Looking at a ketch

Con: Clutter in the cockpit.
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Old 12-05-2015, 12:57   #25
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Re: Looking at a ketch

Ketch Pros and Cons

This is as I see them. I don't own a ketch, but have wanted one for many years. I find them visually appealing when in full sail.
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Pros

Shorter Masts (may be important for larger boats navigating the ICW in USA where most bridges are limited to airdraft of 65 feet clearance)

Smaller sails to handle, maintain.

Possibility to balance the sails for easy helm while sailing.

Looks nice when flying all sails possible (foresails, mainsail, mizzen, staysails, etc.).

Mizzen boom can be used to hold up a cockpit awning for shade.

Mizzen boom can be used for lifting some things from dinghy (using block/tackle)

Mizzenmast can be a good place for RADAR radome and can hold a wind generator too.

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Cons

Twice the Standing Rigging to maintain and refurbish or replace. Another mast to paint.

Twice the Chainplates to maintain and refurbish or replace.

Twice (almost) the Running Rigging. More lines to maintain and replace.

More sails to maintain, service, replace.

More winches to maintain.

Mizzen boom may shade the solar panels if you have them on a Bimini Top or Solar Platform/arch at the stern of the boat.

Mizzen mast may be in the cockpit, taking up space and blocking some view from the helm. On some boats the Mizzenmast may be very close to the companionway.
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Old 12-05-2015, 14:01   #26
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Re: Looking at a ketch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Con: Clutter in the cockpit.
I have a very clear cockpit....



......but then I need to leave my cockpit to raise or lower my main or mizzen.
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Old 13-05-2015, 01:56   #27
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Re: Looking at a ketch

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Originally Posted by SkiprJohn View Post
It's the balance of the rig. A designer takes the combination of center of effort of each sail that will be flown and places it a few inches aft of center of lateral resistance of the boat's underbody (mostly keel) in order to give it slight weather helm. On a ketch rig she'll sail just fine without using the mizzen but she won't be as balanced or as efficient on many points of sail.

So, if that's what you said then you are correct.
The Center of Effort (CE) MUST be in front of the Center of Lateral Resistance (CLR), otherwise a vessel would never be able to tack. Or at least not without going to EXTREME measures in order to do so.

Folks owning boats with a lot/too much weather helm, do lots of things in efforts to move their CE forward to reduce the helm pressure (and said subsequent, built in tendency to want to round up or self-tack).
There's a Sticky on correcting Weather Helm, but one of the most obvious ways to do so is to move the CE forward by adding a bowsprit, & enlarging the jib.


As to Ketches being faster than sloops, such is bunk! Show me any racing boat built in the last 3-4 decades, with 2 masts, other than Maria-Cha, which has set much in the way of records. - And hers didn't last overly long, BTW.
Or anything from the tiny 6.50 class, all the way up to Maxi's, ORMA's, VOR's, IMOCA's etc. which have more than one spar.

Ketches are easier to handle, for a given boat length. But when it comes to flat out speed, regardless of conditions, forget it. Single sticked boats rule supreme.
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Old 09-08-2015, 14:20   #28
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Re: Looking at a ketch

In November of 2014, all I knew about boats was that I just bought one. A 34' Skookum ketch. What an amazing boat. I sold/gave away/trashed everything and moved aboard. Since then, sailing her every opportunity. Setting realistic goals, working to attain them. Sometimes for weeks.

I can tell you the ketch does not like close haul, tolerates close reach, is not even close to the speeds of any sloop. However, she is patient and forgiving of my inexperience. On a beam reach she is very comfortable. And running down wind, with the sails set wing on wing on wing is simply the most gorgeous boat in the Sound.

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Old 10-08-2015, 14:46   #29
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Re: Looking at a ketch

Random thoughts on the ketch:

Having owned and sailed both and currently owning ketch, I think the ketch comes into it's own offshore or in a wide body of water where you will be on the same tack for a while. If a squall approaches I can drop my main and very quickly be at only 2/3 my sail area. If it gets rougher I can roll in the headsail and then she is only at 1/3 and still well balanced and able to come about in a blow under mizzen and staysail.

One drawback is that although my staysail has a boom so tacking is not much more effort than a sloop (just having to tend the headsail sheets), anytime you make a course correction there are three or four sails to adjust rather than just two. My sloop was much easier to take out for a sail than the ketch is.

Another drawback is pointing close to the wind as people have said. Due to the mainmast being forward compared with a sloop if I don't fly the mizzen then she develops lee helm due to her forward center of effort, which slows her down from the rudder correction. If I raise the mizzen to correct this then I have to drop or heavily reef the main since it backwinds the mizzen, so you lose sail area. So sailing close hauled is not a fast point of sail for a ketch.

On a beam reach it's another story... with all that sail area (Mine is a staysail ketch) she sails faster than you would expect in light airs (<10kts of wind) for a 10 ton boat, outsailing many non-racing type sloops. And when the wind picks up she will rival sloops of her same LWL. Plus, you can balance the rig easily with the mizzen so that she will sail on course without autopilot or continuous manning of the helm.

One thing I do like about my ketch is I can come into an anchorage under mizzen and headsail and she is very balanced so I can sail around and tack easily and slowly, always coming about when asked due to the balanced rig, and find where I want to anchor. Once I find the spot I head up into the wind, sheet the mizzen tight and roll in the head sail, and she will stay pointed into the wind while I leisurely walk up and drop the anchor. The same goes for raising sail, i can head into the wind and once the mizzen is sheeted tight she stays pointed fairly close so I can raise the main and staysail or roll out the head sail without the bow falling off the wind too much. This works well when leaving under sail from a mooring or anchor... sheet the mizzen tight, raise the staysail. Pull up the anchor, she stays pointed into the wind due to the tight mizzen acting like a windvane. Then backwind the staysail to get her bow to fall off on the tack you want, go back, sheet the staysail, loosen the mizzen, and you're sailing on the tack you want, perfectly balanced, so you can maneuver and tack at will even in light airs (although slowly).

There is extra maintenance and effort to sail a ketch, but the rig makes sense in alot of ways due to the multitude of options you have for balancing the boat under sail.

-Dave
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Old 11-08-2015, 01:21   #30
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Re: Looking at a ketch

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
The Center of Effort (CE) MUST be in front of the Center of Lateral Resistance (CLR), otherwise a vessel would never be able to tack. Or at least not without going to EXTREME measures in order to do so.

Folks owning boats with a lot/too much weather helm, do lots of things in efforts to move their CE forward to reduce the helm pressure (and said subsequent, built in tendency to want to round up or self-tack).
There's a Sticky on correcting Weather Helm, but one of the most obvious ways to do so is to move the CE forward by adding a bowsprit, & enlarging the jib.


As to Ketches being faster than sloops, such is bunk! Show me any racing boat built in the last 3-4 decades, with 2 masts, other than Maria-Cha, which has set much in the way of records. - And hers didn't last overly long, BTW.
Or anything from the tiny 6.50 class, all the way up to Maxi's, ORMA's, VOR's, IMOCA's etc. which have more than one spar.

Ketches are easier to handle, for a given boat length. But when it comes to flat out speed, regardless of conditions, forget it. Single sticked boats rule supreme.
I either don't understand what you're saying or disagree. I just can't figure out which at this point.

If the center of effort is forward of your center of lateral resistance doesn't that give you lee helm? So once you take your hand from the helm your boat will bear off and eventually jibe?

If that's the case then that, in my point of view, is a dangerous thing to have designed into your vessel.
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