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Old 27-12-2003, 20:59   #31
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Actually, fin keels are much better going to windward. Fin keel boats generally make less leeway than long keeled boats. They also generally point at higher angles. They also get by with less sail area making them easier to handle in either light winds or heavier winds. If Chichester was actually making 18 degrees of leeway (rather than sailing at 18 degrees apparent which is more likely) I can't imagine why Chichester was making as much leeway as he reported but that is enormous for a fin keeled boat.

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Old 28-12-2003, 20:24   #32
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Hey Jeff- these are Chichesters words !

I'm quoting further from his book " The Romantic Challenge( not voyage- my bad) "...
" Noon, 25 February : Today another poor run of only 94 miles between fixes and Gypsy Moth sailed 123.5 miles to make good that distance. She was set 41 miles to the WSW by the current and the leeway in the gale. The track made good showed nearly the same angle of leeway as yesterday, 18 degrees. I would have to keep Gypsy Moth close hauled hard on the wind if she was to make Cape Tiburon, the south-west point of Haiti, at the approach to the Windward Passage".
" I had thought that in a modern yacht I could do better than the Clippers by sailing closer to the wind than they could, but I flopped badly. Their lore on ocean passages the result of thousands of voyages, and afterwards I read that Cutty Sark's fastest point of sailing was 45 degrees off the apparent wind, which is closer winded than Gypsy Mpth can sail in a rough sea".
Now , when I read further in the book, it turns out that Gypsy Moth was Ketch rigged and the engine and the six unit battery pack was located aft of the Mizzen ! This is one heck of a chunk of weight. He said that he kept most of his anchors, chain rode, and water tanks well forward, but still Gypsy was down at the stern. Geez, I wonder why.
A fella by the name of Robert Clark designed Gypsy. I wonder if you know of his work.
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Old 28-12-2003, 21:21   #33
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I must say that all this amount of informations are very useful to make the better choice that I can. For example to know that the Fuji is a poor quality boat is good for me inasmuch as in this period (and for the next 18 months) I'm in Japan where Fuji was made. Unfortunely here is very difficult to find north american boats, and the only boats that so far I could find were:

1) Yamaha (huge quantity, but thin keel)
2) Fujy 35
3) Benetau (I prefer not to think of such kind of boat)

Anyway my research will go on, thinking of all your suggestions.

Btw, if you know some web-site were are present boats sold in Japan, please let me know, ok?

Thanks, Remo
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Old 29-12-2003, 05:05   #34
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From the title of this thread, it would appear that you are looking for a long keeled boat when you might be much better served and have a lot more choices with a boat that has a fin keel and skeg hung rudder.

As to the Chichester quote, he says that he is making 18 degrees of leeway but that sounds like he is including the current in that number. I am also surprised that he is saying that he is only able to point at 45 degrees apparent. That does not match my experience with modern boats (of course I believe that his so-called 'modern boat' was designed in the 1960's and was not all that modern) My experience with truly modern boats in high winds and seas is that you can generally point at 18 to 20 degrees apparent which translates to a course made good in the 40 degrees true range. Even if you elect to slow down for comfort that still translates to a CMG of 45 degrees true. That compares with my experience with more traditional craft (my Folkboat and 1939 Stadel Cutter, or the 1903 Herreshoff that I helped deliver from Savannah to St. Augustine for example) in these conditions, in which we could only point at roughly 35 degrees apparent which translated to a course made good roughly 55 to 65 degrees true.

Jeff
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Old 29-12-2003, 17:50   #35
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Jeff ! Your doin' something nasty to me !

Your making me look at my Non- Changing Shibboleths and having me agree to look at, and discard them. Gad I hate changing my opinions. I have to look at Chichesters observations of his craft created in the sixties to go fast, and technical changes since then, and agree that the ol' ones looked good, but sailed miserably compared to the boats now. Your Farr would outsail my Cascade. My Cascade would probably outsail a ( Gasp) love of my eyes, Herroschoff.
Someday I envision an egg shaped Kevlar box made up of a helium rich foam, mounted on a half dozen hydro-foils shreiking to windward at wind speed or greater, driven by computer shaped airfoils, and some guy thinking it will be like that forever. Little does he know.
Thanks...
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Old 29-12-2003, 20:07   #36
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Perhaps this is the time for a story. Back in the early 1970's when I owned the 1939 Stadel Cutter with my Dad, we'd come down and work on the old girl together and when we were not working on the boat, Dad or I was out sailing her. It was not unsual for Indian to be out of her slip 3-4 times a week. A couple slips down was a fellow with a rather expensive and almost new boat that he kept in near perfect shape. Many an evening I would see him down there working on his boat and invite him to join me for a sail and he would often join me or else decline because of something that needed to be done.

On one of the evenings that we went out sailing he asked me how much we had invested in Indian and I told him that we were probably approaching $3000 at that point including the purchase price. He was stunned and delighted at the same time and told me that was roughly 5% of what he's paid for his boat but also pointed out that we had a lot more fun for our dollar.

In the end, as much as I enjoy fast boats today, what counts is not how fast that a boat sails. All that really counts is that you enjoy the boat you own or else move on to a boat that rings your chimes. In the region where I sail light air performance means a lot more sailing days and a little speed means a lot more places that you can go on a given trip, but I assure you that I don't see speed as the be all/end all.

Respectfully,

Jeff
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Old 29-12-2003, 21:48   #37
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Sailing $$

Well said, using that criterian I think my wife and I would qualify. We sail our boat at least once a week and have done so since 1979 for me, and 1982 for the both of us. It is too cold to sail in the winter, so late Nov to early March the boat just sits at its mooring.
I think Cascade 29 is on the right track as well. Whatever gets folks out on the water suits me, if it is a good performing boat all the better. I posted some pics of our boat. Check the photo section for Maarire ( Gently ). BC Mike C
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Old 05-01-2004, 22:56   #38
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Alberg designed several good boats in the 30 foot area. Many are in Europe and on the eastern U.S Coast as well as Canada. A good site to start at would be www.yachtworld.com select boats for sale then sail and used. Try Cape Dory, or Alberg. I am presently sailing an Alberg 29 with full keel. She is very blue water able. Purchase price was in the mid 20 thousands U.S. $
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Old 06-01-2004, 05:27   #39
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I am curious about your post. You say that you are "presently sailing an Alberg 29 with full keel". While I am not specifically familiar with the Alberg 29, almost every boat that I know of designed by Alberg did not have a full keel at least as defined by any classic definition of a full keel but were in fact fin keels with attached rudders (at least if you use the widely accepted definition of a fin keel which defines a fin keel was any keel where the keel bottom was equal to 50% or less of the overall length on deck or 50% or less the length of the sail plan in the case of a boat with spars that are longer than the boat) or were, at most, long keels. Does your boat actually have full keel or is it technically a fin or long keel with attached rudder? Also, who built your boat?

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Old 23-06-2005, 15:42   #40
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Jeff,
I have an Alberg 37, 1967. I did my research prior to buying her and I am extremely happy with her. She was made by Whitby in Ontario. I am a Great Lakes sailor and we certainly see our share of weather. About Alberg, this is what I know and what I think. Although he was a great designer, designing such boats as the Ensign, Cape Dory, Robinhood and the Pearson Alberg 35, the 29 and the Whitby's 30 and 37. He was pretty much a one trick pony. Every single one of his boats seem to be a duplicate of the previous boat as far as the hull is concerned. MY 37 is identical to a 30 and a 35 except for two areas. Size of course and placement of the mast. The 30 and 35 are deck stepped, the 37 is keel stepped. There was also a selection of rigs, sloop and yawl. But one thing is certain the boats all have a full keel. You cannot call the keel on an Alberg a fin under any circumstance, not even a modified keel. Additionally, Alberg worked for Alden at a certain point. I think prior to WWII. I am not sure which boats he designed for Alden although a couple of wooden boats have been credited to him, but I have a friend here in Chicago with 1929 Alden Schooner and it is amazing how similar they look in the keel, wide overhangs, wide decks and the hull shaped bow to stern.
Finally, take a look at the Alberg's numbers, although I do not think I would care for a deck stepped mast in blue water there are several serious blue water boats that employ that arrangement.
Thanks,
J
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Old 24-06-2005, 02:56   #41
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Is this considered a full keel or modified fin???




As for deck stepped masts for off shore, I prefer them. As Jeff explains, if you break a mast at sea, it would be much EZ'r to restep a stub then to try to rig up a broken stump. At least, you may gain back a mast head.

regards................................._/)
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Old 24-06-2005, 06:13   #42
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Full Keel.
Must say, that's one superb looking yacht Delmarrey
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Old 24-06-2005, 06:13   #43
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Full Keel.
Must say, that's one superb looking yacht Delmarrey
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Old 24-06-2005, 21:14   #44
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Looking at the profile of the Alberg 37 that Delmarrey posted, by any of the traditional definition of a fin keel (which typically defined a fin keel as a keel whose bottom was less than 50% of the length on deck or horizontal projection of the rig) the Alberg 37 (like most of Alberg's designs) is clearly a fin keel with an attached rudder. It has substantially less area than a Cal 36 for example which no one would dare call a full keel. I have no clue why you folks think this is a full keel. I suggest that you compare the full keel on a, Ingrid, Bristol Channel cutter or Tayana 37, and the fin keel on a 1960's era Cal 40 and see which of the two this keel resembles more. I would post some profiles to assist with this but I have not figured out how to insert a picture in a posting on this site.

By the same token, In another post Blackbeard describes many of the negative traits of the Alberg 37 attributing them to the fact that he perceives the boat to be a full keel. Most of these negatives are more typical of a fin keel with an attached rudder than they are of a full keel. The problem with a fin keel with attached rudder such as the Alberg 37 is that they have all of the negatives of both a fin keel and full keel with almost none of the virtues.

Jeff
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Old 24-06-2005, 22:07   #45
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Thanks for the correction Jeff, I thought it was Waterline length, not deck length. Hey-I ain't no expert. Plus, That makes some interesting changes in how I have viewed a whole lot of designs.
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